5 ms·

You cited the CDC, but now that the figure you used has been cleared up, you no longer like the CDC as a source? > Reports of adverse events to VAERS following

by OzyM 5y ago

You cited the CDC, but now that the figure you used has been cleared up, you no longer like the CDC as a source? > Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths.[0][emphasis mine] [0] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/ad...

call_me_dana 5y ago
> You cited the CDC, but now that the figure you used has been cleared up, you no longer like the CDC as a source? You seem to be conflating numbers reported to the CDC with investigations conducted by the CDC themselves.
ElectronCharge 5y ago
I didn’t say I “didn’t like the CDC as a source”. I did indicate I’m skeptical that all investigations of vaccine related deaths have been sufficient to determine causality. For instance, it’s well established that the Pfizer vaccine may cause cardiac problems. It seems entirely reasonable to me that in some cases that resulted in a fatal cardiac event. I have the luxury of not having to associate with others much. That certainly colors my risk analysis, along with the absolute fact that the long-term side effects of the mRNA vaccines are unknown.
- simonh 5y ago
  Come on. You must see that believing and quoting the VAERS numbers, but choosing not to believe the review of clinical information, even though both come from the same source is clearly picking and choosing to fit a pre-conceived narative. I mean we all know people do this, in fact we all do, and here’s one if the clearest examples I’ve ever seen. Either the US health care system is a reliable source or it’s not. Unless you have an actual informed reason that isn’t post-hoc construction, based on reliable information about both processes, for believing the VAERS reports but not the clinical review process? Yes of course I’m choosing to trust both. I believe in the checks and balances in the system, that these organisations contain people with a variety of political beliefs, that freedom of speech and the press is an effective counter to deception. But at least I’m applying that trust consistently. If you distrust them then fine, I’m sure you have your reasons, but please at least be consistent about it.
- OzyM 5y ago
  Yes, of the 177 million doses of vaccine given in the U.S., there have been ~1000 reports of heart issues. Amounts to ~0.000006% of people who receive the vaccine (in the U.S.) having inflammation of the heart after. [0] As far as I can tell, no heart-related deaths have been evidentially linked to any COVID-19 vaccine. Meanwhile, COVID-19 itself also causes heart problems with higher severity and on a much larger scale. In children, this usually is multisystem inflammatory syndrome that can cause severe damage and death. In adults, severe heart attacks are a known (albeit rare) side-effect of COVID-19. [1] There is also early, but not conclusive, evidence that the coronavirus can cause longer-term heart damage in some cases, such as scarring. You're welcome to make your own medical decisions such as whether you'd like to get vaccinated, but all of the data I'm aware of suggests that by any measure, vaccination is probably a good choice for the vast majority of people (barring those with allergies to the vaccine, or other known issues). [0] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/my... [1] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/heart-problems-after-covid19 https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...

by OzyM 5y ago

call_me_dana 5y ago

> You cited the CDC, but now that the figure you used has been cleared up, you no longer like the CDC as a source? You seem to be conflating numbers reported to the CDC with investigations conducted by the CDC themselves.

ElectronCharge 5y ago

I didn’t say I “didn’t like the CDC as a source”. I did indicate I’m skeptical that all investigations of vaccine related deaths have been sufficient to determine causality. For instance, it’s well established that the Pfizer vaccine may cause cardiac problems. It seems entirely reasonable to me that in some cases that resulted in a fatal cardiac event. I have the luxury of not having to associate with others much. That certainly colors my risk analysis, along with the absolute fact that the long-term side effects of the mRNA vaccines are unknown.

simonh 5y ago
Come on. You must see that believing and quoting the VAERS numbers, but choosing not to believe the review of clinical information, even though both come from the same source is clearly picking and choosing to fit a pre-conceived narative. I mean we all know people do this, in fact we all do, and here’s one if the clearest examples I’ve ever seen. Either the US health care system is a reliable source or it’s not. Unless you have an actual informed reason that isn’t post-hoc construction, based on reliable information about both processes, for believing the VAERS reports but not the clinical review process? Yes of course I’m choosing to trust both. I believe in the checks and balances in the system, that these organisations contain people with a variety of political beliefs, that freedom of speech and the press is an effective counter to deception. But at least I’m applying that trust consistently. If you distrust them then fine, I’m sure you have your reasons, but please at least be consistent about it.
OzyM 5y ago
Yes, of the 177 million doses of vaccine given in the U.S., there have been ~1000 reports of heart issues. Amounts to ~0.000006% of people who receive the vaccine (in the U.S.) having inflammation of the heart after. [0] As far as I can tell, no heart-related deaths have been evidentially linked to any COVID-19 vaccine. Meanwhile, COVID-19 itself also causes heart problems with higher severity and on a much larger scale. In children, this usually is multisystem inflammatory syndrome that can cause severe damage and death. In adults, severe heart attacks are a known (albeit rare) side-effect of COVID-19. [1] There is also early, but not conclusive, evidence that the coronavirus can cause longer-term heart damage in some cases, such as scarring. You're welcome to make your own medical decisions such as whether you'd like to get vaccinated, but all of the data I'm aware of suggests that by any measure, vaccination is probably a good choice for the vast majority of people (barring those with allergies to the vaccine, or other known issues). [0] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/my... [1] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/heart-problems-after-covid19 https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...