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> The cognitive dissonance is not particularly pleasant It's not unexpected though, is it? Certain personality types, and to a large extent certain cultures,

> The cognitive dissonance is not particularly pleasant It's not unexpected though, is it? Certain personality types, and to a large extent certain cultures, reflexively push back when forced to do something, even if it's a Good Idea or something they'd do or have already done anyway. While that reflex may have downsides (like the current situation with vaccines), from a societal standpoint, it's a strong check against abuse of power.

saiya-jin 5y ago
I've been like that in my natural setting, meaning whole childhood and well into maturity. Meaning even mostly cool stuff in school was hated with passion, took me quite some time to find my way back to it (ie biology, geography, chemistry, native language). Its a stupid emotional knee-jerk reaction. Happy to got over it over time. Maybe those potential benefits only manifest on large-enough scale of population, don't know and don't want to try. Science, on the other hand, has practically never failed me (since I also understand probability and downsides). The problem these days, from my perspective, large enough population was lured into 'alt-science' which is not science at all. It works on emotional level, so no rational argument will persuade them, in contrary. That's a dark path to take, and the longer one goes on it, the harder is to ever get back. There is no benefit to civilization that I can see, I hope to change my mind on this over time. Just a potential rift across most of the world (maybe apart from places like China, which benefits greatly from the self-inflicted mess western countries are in).
nathanaldensr 5y ago
This is exactly correct. The modern assumption by certain ideologies that evil doesn't exist is at the root of this. Yes, there are people that will lie, use their credentials, use existing seemingly impartial processes, use psychological tricks, etc. to trick you and control you. Yes, these people exist! So many people are very, very naive, having never seen real evil. Evil has become abstracted--a meme. Do we have roving bands of mercenaries looking to kill us and take our stuff here in the United States? No, and in some ways, that's become a bad thing. People don't know how to identify real evil anymore!
- mywittyname 5y ago
  Agreed. However, the "evil" people are capitalizing on the pandemic in a very different way than the "good" people are. > Do we have roving bands of mercenaries looking to kill us and take our stuff here in the United States? Maybe not where you live. But roving militias are a thing across the midwest. Some dismiss them as bored guys cosplaying freedom fighters, but they are out there and are actively conspiring to hurt people. They just aren't taken seriously yet because they haven't actually hurt too many people.
ryandrake 5y ago
Pushing back on a good idea just because it's compulsory is not logical. It's like pushing back on seat belt laws. Seat belts are almost universally considered a good idea. They save lives of the wearer who doesn't want to turn into a hamburger during a crash, and protects the people around them who have one less projectile to worry about. There are almost no down-sides to seat belt use. Yet, I know people (even in my own family) who to this day refuse to wear them, simply because They Aren't Going To Let The Man Tell Them What To Do. It seems like just a childish and immature reason to not do something when the upside overwhelms the downside.
- phtrivier 5y ago
  > It seems like just a childish and immature reason to not do something when the upside overwhelms the downside. You pretty much nail the issue: when it's 100% obvious that the upside of the policy (hopefully much less hospitalizations and death amound old people) overwhelms the downside (unhopefully more adverse side effects amoung the much younger general population), then the decision will be rational. At the moment, I claim it's not entirely irrationnal (although clearly pessimistic) to at least feel a bit uneasy.

saiya-jin 5y ago

I've been like that in my natural setting, meaning whole childhood and well into maturity. Meaning even mostly cool stuff in school was hated with passion, took me quite some time to find my way back to it (ie biology, geography, chemistry, native language). Its a stupid emotional knee-jerk reaction. Happy to got over it over time. Maybe those potential benefits only manifest on large-enough scale of population, don't know and don't want to try. Science, on the other hand, has practically never failed me (since I also understand probability and downsides). The problem these days, from my perspective, large enough population was lured into 'alt-science' which is not science at all. It works on emotional level, so no rational argument will persuade them, in contrary. That's a dark path to take, and the longer one goes on it, the harder is to ever get back. There is no benefit to civilization that I can see, I hope to change my mind on this over time. Just a potential rift across most of the world (maybe apart from places like China, which benefits greatly from the self-inflicted mess western countries are in).

nathanaldensr 5y ago

This is exactly correct. The modern assumption by certain ideologies that evil doesn't exist is at the root of this. Yes, there are people that will lie, use their credentials, use existing seemingly impartial processes, use psychological tricks, etc. to trick you and control you. Yes, these people exist! So many people are very, very naive, having never seen real evil. Evil has become abstracted--a meme. Do we have roving bands of mercenaries looking to kill us and take our stuff here in the United States? No, and in some ways, that's become a bad thing. People don't know how to identify real evil anymore!

mywittyname 5y ago
Agreed. However, the "evil" people are capitalizing on the pandemic in a very different way than the "good" people are. > Do we have roving bands of mercenaries looking to kill us and take our stuff here in the United States? Maybe not where you live. But roving militias are a thing across the midwest. Some dismiss them as bored guys cosplaying freedom fighters, but they are out there and are actively conspiring to hurt people. They just aren't taken seriously yet because they haven't actually hurt too many people.

ryandrake 5y ago

Pushing back on a good idea just because it's compulsory is not logical. It's like pushing back on seat belt laws. Seat belts are almost universally considered a good idea. They save lives of the wearer who doesn't want to turn into a hamburger during a crash, and protects the people around them who have one less projectile to worry about. There are almost no down-sides to seat belt use. Yet, I know people (even in my own family) who to this day refuse to wear them, simply because They Aren't Going To Let The Man Tell Them What To Do. It seems like just a childish and immature reason to not do something when the upside overwhelms the downside.

phtrivier 5y ago
> It seems like just a childish and immature reason to not do something when the upside overwhelms the downside. You pretty much nail the issue: when it's 100% obvious that the upside of the policy (hopefully much less hospitalizations and death amound old people) overwhelms the downside (unhopefully more adverse side effects amoung the much younger general population), then the decision will be rational. At the moment, I claim it's not entirely irrationnal (although clearly pessimistic) to at least feel a bit uneasy.