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Google already singlehandedly controls the web standards. Firefox and Safari are the last obstacles to them basically privatizing the web. The independent Chro

Google already singlehandedly controls the web standards. Firefox and Safari are the last obstacles to them basically privatizing the web. The independent Chromium distributions do very little to that effect, as they're not incentivized to specifically disable features Google puts in. If Firefox goes away, kiss the open web goodbye. We'll have it on paper, but just that. It'll be Google's web.

vbezhenar 5y ago
Safari is the real alternative keeping web open. Firefox does not serve that role anymore.
- wongarsu 5y ago
  Safari is only available on one platform (that internationally has a small market share) and isn't all that great about implementing web standards in a timely manner. To me, Firefox is the far better alternative. But really, why should there be only one?
  - historyloop 5y ago
    > isn't all that great about implementing web standards in a timely manner. It's not good at implementing standards in timely manner which Chrome implements before they're even standards (and then become standards when Google pushes them to become so). Interesting isn't it. That literally goes back to what I said. Without Firefox and Safari, Google can declare anything it wants a standard and implement it LITERALLY yesterday. Among standards Safari is slow to implement in "timely manner" is web pages connecting to USB devices, Bluetooth and a plethora of other nonsense which Google keeps pushing through because they want the web to be the application OS for everyone, and then slap ads on it.
  - vbezhenar 5y ago
    Safari is used by rich people who can afford iPhones and Macs. Those people are valuable visitors for many websites. And Safari marketshare (with iOS) is not tiny. So plenty of websites do care about Safari compatibility.
  - forgotpwd16 5y ago
    Safari is available on one platform but its engine is cross-platform and used by few browsers (Epiphany, Luakit, Nyxt, Vimb, ...).
  - astrange 5y ago
    "Implementing web standards" is Chrome's strategy for becoming a browser monopoly. They just constantly make up things like USB in web browsers faster than anyone else could implement it. Just because they standardize it doesn't mean anyone should be forced to keep up with them.
- deregulateMed 5y ago
  A closed browser with limited features made by a unethical company is keeping the web open? I'll take FOSS chromium variants before I give my data to Apple(and by proxy, the US and Chinese government).
  - rvz 5y ago
    > made by a unethical company is keeping the web open? There are no angels with the known contenders of "keeping the web open" unless you want to use SerenityOS's web browser that they made themselves. Unless you are using a very exotic OS that has a browser, I'm not sure how you can begin to defend a chromium variant still derived by an unethical company (Because you have to update that fork) and then attack another unethical company for giving your data to them.
  - historyloop 5y ago
    > unethical company Unless there's a mathematical definition of "ethical" that we can rely on for objective assessment, that's basically everyone and no one based on how you feel any particular day.
tapoxi 5y ago
I mean sure, but realistically speaking, how can we afford to continue supporting Firefox? I can't make a plea to the CTO of "Please let us keep investing money in compatibility because it may have a minor impact on the open web." Firefox is in a downward trajectory for marketshare and mindshare. I would love to hear a realistic solution to this problem. Maybe switching to WebKit?
- hannob 5y ago
  Given how many discussions I had in the past about people insisting to support legacy, unsupported browsers I'm surprised "5% of our users use it" isn't enough to convince almost everyone to support it.
  - tapoxi 5y ago
    If you mean Internet Explorer, it's because the deprecation of that is starting now because Edge supports IE mode for legacy apps and is otherwise Chromium.
rvz 5y ago
It's a two horse race, and its Chrome vs Safari. Firefox is non-existent in this race and is so behind that Google pays hundreds of millions to its creator Mozilla, which contributes a significant amount to their entire revenue source. I hate to be the one to bring in 'the facts' but Firefox itself is becoming more irrelevant and there is no question on that. Microsoft Edge (using Chromium) is used more than Firefox [0] and global Firefox usage has been declining ever since. [1] As I said before [2] the Chrome ecosystem has given Google the dominance of more than just the web standards and the web developers were happy to live with this. I'd say the so called 'open web' just exchanged from one behemoth to another. To Downvoters: So 'Firefox is the most used and dominant browser and Chrome is in second place'? So 'Google is not paying Firefox in the millions'? I strongly disagree and can confidently say that Firefox usage is dying. Change my mind. I have just given credible sources to substantiate my claims yet no counter arguments or disproving the facts are presented towards my comment. [0] https://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-edge-just-left-a-serious-rival-in-its-dust https://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-edge-just-left-a-se... [1] https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop-mobile-tablet/worldwide/#yearly-2009-2020 https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop-mobi... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27769206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27769206

vbezhenar 5y ago

Safari is the real alternative keeping web open. Firefox does not serve that role anymore.

wongarsu 5y ago
Safari is only available on one platform (that internationally has a small market share) and isn't all that great about implementing web standards in a timely manner. To me, Firefox is the far better alternative. But really, why should there be only one?
- historyloop 5y ago
  > isn't all that great about implementing web standards in a timely manner. It's not good at implementing standards in timely manner which Chrome implements before they're even standards (and then become standards when Google pushes them to become so). Interesting isn't it. That literally goes back to what I said. Without Firefox and Safari, Google can declare anything it wants a standard and implement it LITERALLY yesterday. Among standards Safari is slow to implement in "timely manner" is web pages connecting to USB devices, Bluetooth and a plethora of other nonsense which Google keeps pushing through because they want the web to be the application OS for everyone, and then slap ads on it.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  Safari is used by rich people who can afford iPhones and Macs. Those people are valuable visitors for many websites. And Safari marketshare (with iOS) is not tiny. So plenty of websites do care about Safari compatibility.
- forgotpwd16 5y ago
  Safari is available on one platform but its engine is cross-platform and used by few browsers (Epiphany, Luakit, Nyxt, Vimb, ...).
- astrange 5y ago
  "Implementing web standards" is Chrome's strategy for becoming a browser monopoly. They just constantly make up things like USB in web browsers faster than anyone else could implement it. Just because they standardize it doesn't mean anyone should be forced to keep up with them.
deregulateMed 5y ago
A closed browser with limited features made by a unethical company is keeping the web open? I'll take FOSS chromium variants before I give my data to Apple(and by proxy, the US and Chinese government).
- rvz 5y ago
  > made by a unethical company is keeping the web open? There are no angels with the known contenders of "keeping the web open" unless you want to use SerenityOS's web browser that they made themselves. Unless you are using a very exotic OS that has a browser, I'm not sure how you can begin to defend a chromium variant still derived by an unethical company (Because you have to update that fork) and then attack another unethical company for giving your data to them.
- historyloop 5y ago
  > unethical company Unless there's a mathematical definition of "ethical" that we can rely on for objective assessment, that's basically everyone and no one based on how you feel any particular day.

tapoxi 5y ago

I mean sure, but realistically speaking, how can we afford to continue supporting Firefox? I can't make a plea to the CTO of "Please let us keep investing money in compatibility because it may have a minor impact on the open web." Firefox is in a downward trajectory for marketshare and mindshare. I would love to hear a realistic solution to this problem. Maybe switching to WebKit?

hannob 5y ago
Given how many discussions I had in the past about people insisting to support legacy, unsupported browsers I'm surprised "5% of our users use it" isn't enough to convince almost everyone to support it.
- tapoxi 5y ago
  If you mean Internet Explorer, it's because the deprecation of that is starting now because Edge supports IE mode for legacy apps and is otherwise Chromium.

rvz 5y ago

It's a two horse race, and its Chrome vs Safari. Firefox is non-existent in this race and is so behind that Google pays hundreds of millions to its creator Mozilla, which contributes a significant amount to their entire revenue source. I hate to be the one to bring in 'the facts' but Firefox itself is becoming more irrelevant and there is no question on that. Microsoft Edge (using Chromium) is used more than Firefox [0] and global Firefox usage has been declining ever since. [1] As I said before [2] the Chrome ecosystem has given Google the dominance of more than just the web standards and the web developers were happy to live with this. I'd say the so called 'open web' just exchanged from one behemoth to another. To Downvoters: So 'Firefox is the most used and dominant browser and Chrome is in second place'? So 'Google is not paying Firefox in the millions'? I strongly disagree and can confidently say that Firefox usage is dying. Change my mind. I have just given credible sources to substantiate my claims yet no counter arguments or disproving the facts are presented towards my comment. [0] https://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-edge-just-left-a-serious-rival-in-its-dust https://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-edge-just-left-a-se... [1] https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop-mobile-tablet/worldwide/#yearly-2009-2020 https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop-mobi... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27769206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27769206