3 ms·

I agree. I previously worked in an XP shop that spent seven hours a day doing pair programming. It was exhausting, and challenging to do non-dev work in the hou

I agree. I previously worked in an XP shop that spent seven hours a day doing pair programming. It was exhausting, and challenging to do non-dev work in the hour a day left. Especially as a team lead, it took a lot of extra time or carving out time away from the pair to get enough done. I also don’t know if full eight hour days are good, in general. I feel like 5x6 or 4x8 would be a better schedule, though, with a four day week, I’d be curious to try “weekend Wednesday” out instead of just having a three day weekend.

kube-system 5y ago
I feel like measuring a workday in hours is more useful for measuring the workload of a non-stop assembly line type work than it is for a knowledge-based job. 8 hours of work where you can grab a coffee and read HN whenever you want could be easier on the mind than 6 hours of work where your attention is in constant demand. I do wish I could do the same number of hours over 4 days instead of 5, though.
- Spartan-S63 5y ago
  I agree. Ideally, we get to an end-state where it doesn't matter what hours (or how many) you work as long as your team's outcomes are being met (and the outcomes are reasonable). There are a lot of caveats and complexities in that statement, but it's a state we can keep pushing towards as an industry.
  - hallway_monitor 5y ago
    I really like this idea but I'm not sure how to implement it. If Bob works twice as fast as Jim, does Bob get to go home at noon or does Jim have to work late?
    - kube-system 5y ago
      There are various types of employee pay arrangements other than hourly and salary that do this (even though, some salaried jobs do work the way you describe), like piece work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_work And it's already really common for non-employee contract work to function that way. The guy who mows my lawn gets paid the same amount no matter what speed he mows it. That being said, there are plenty of salaried jobs where people are assigned measurable responsibilities to attend to and don't have assigned work hours.
hallway_monitor 5y ago
I agree that their programming is extremely draining when done non-stop. I can't do it 8 hours a day and I don't expect my team to do that either but I would like them to average 4 hours a day. In my experience if the rule is pair programming then the exception is working solo on simple or repetitive tasks that you've done before which works well.
Trasmatta 5y ago
Also worked in an XP shop. Learned a lot, but worst dev job of my life. Full time pair programming is one of the worst ideas in software development in the last decade. It's unbelievably exhausting.

kube-system 5y ago

I feel like measuring a workday in hours is more useful for measuring the workload of a non-stop assembly line type work than it is for a knowledge-based job. 8 hours of work where you can grab a coffee and read HN whenever you want could be easier on the mind than 6 hours of work where your attention is in constant demand. I do wish I could do the same number of hours over 4 days instead of 5, though.

Spartan-S63 5y ago
I agree. Ideally, we get to an end-state where it doesn't matter what hours (or how many) you work as long as your team's outcomes are being met (and the outcomes are reasonable). There are a lot of caveats and complexities in that statement, but it's a state we can keep pushing towards as an industry.
- hallway_monitor 5y ago
  I really like this idea but I'm not sure how to implement it. If Bob works twice as fast as Jim, does Bob get to go home at noon or does Jim have to work late?
  - kube-system 5y ago
    There are various types of employee pay arrangements other than hourly and salary that do this (even though, some salaried jobs do work the way you describe), like piece work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piece_work And it's already really common for non-employee contract work to function that way. The guy who mows my lawn gets paid the same amount no matter what speed he mows it. That being said, there are plenty of salaried jobs where people are assigned measurable responsibilities to attend to and don't have assigned work hours.

hallway_monitor 5y ago

I agree that their programming is extremely draining when done non-stop. I can't do it 8 hours a day and I don't expect my team to do that either but I would like them to average 4 hours a day. In my experience if the rule is pair programming then the exception is working solo on simple or repetitive tasks that you've done before which works well.

Trasmatta 5y ago

Also worked in an XP shop. Learned a lot, but worst dev job of my life. Full time pair programming is one of the worst ideas in software development in the last decade. It's unbelievably exhausting.