5 ms·

Developers are getting too spoiled. Did someone do the same research for teachers for example.

antris 5y ago
This myth of "spoiled developers" definitely feeds into the problem. People feel like they cannot complain about their work conditions because they have nice toys and benefits at the work place.
- playpause 5y ago
  As a long time developer, I think we are pretty good at complaining about our work conditions, and are spoiled in many ways. We also have some very valid complaints about the bullshit we have to deal with, interfering micromanagers making us less productive and less happy, etc. All these things can be true at once. You don’t need to dismiss any of them as myths.
Verdex 5y ago
If it turned out that teachers (and everyone else) also have an ~80% burnout rate, then that only shows a more fundamental problem. Not that anyone is being spoiled. And it's okay if that starts by finding out that developers have a ~80% burnout rate. To be fair, you are at least correct that we should run the same study against teachers. (And really as many other people as we can find the time/money for.)
- varelaz 5y ago
  The thing is that these bare numbers say nothing without "in compare with". There should be comparison with other job types or historical at least to make certain assumptions. Also for such burnouts developers often have some type of compensation, while other jobs rather not. Compare for example developers problems with Amazon devilery service drivers problems with toilets. A lot of jobs just luck minimal comfort and compesations and hardly can complain.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
MattGaiser 5y ago
Given the turnover in teaching in many places, they are also burned out.
eplanit 5y ago
I think we learned this past year that at least a few teachers are quite exceptionally spoiled (disappointing, and for me a bit surprising). Maybe I'm biased by the witnessing the antics of the California teachers union, but their ranks have been an embarrassment to the profession. Their continued push-back against returning to regular classes has grown tiresome (California has decided, with union pressure, to defy CDC guidelines and require masking and distancing despite vaccines and low risk -- "follow the science" is no longer spoken by them). https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-school-board-members-caught-disparaging-parents-accidental-zoom-broadcast-n1258351 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-school-board... https://meaww.com/alissa-piro-california-teacher-zoom-rant-how-to-do-job-parents-schools-closed-whites-get-everything https://meaww.com/alissa-piro-california-teacher-zoom-rant-h...
- renewiltord 5y ago
  Yeah, teachers benefit from a social cachet that is outsize related to their true efficacy. They are not nearly as effective or as important as people make them out to be.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    They are very important, but not always for the reasons that people make them out to be important.
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      Mind explaining? As institutional day care? I believe it.
      - kube-system 5y ago
        I wouldn’t go that far. I do think that, particularly for primary education, some people tend to overinflate the importance of teachers as academic experts and discount their social importance. The value that school provides kids, parents, and the community is multifaceted. If anything, primary educations are very important, but not because kids learn basic arithmetic, but because they learn the foundational social concepts that will permanently shape their ideas about justice, respect, cooperation, etc.
sethammons 5y ago
I've been a teacher (and a manager, all levels of software engineer up to principal, a construction worker, an inner-city and high gang-presence high school math teacher, a graphic designer, and worked under a yard maintenance guy from Mexico, and several other small jobs. The software stuff has been among the easiest jobs (even with mission critical systems failing in the middle of the night affecting millions of dollars in revenue) I've experienced. Software developers at many, many companies are absolutely spoiled. I know there have to be negative stories, but on the whole, pay, benefits, perks, and even hours are better than a great many industries. Even game shop crunch hours seem about on par for doctors in residency, some (most?) finance shops, and I'm sure other less notable roles like my friend who works in water distribution who puts in 90 hour weeks regularly and just got off a 39 hour shift.
- decebalus1 5y ago
  On the same logic, you can find tons of other 'easier' jobs that still experience burnout or boreout. What you're unconsciously doing is a form of the `fallacy of relative privation`. Sure, software engineering is an easier job than resident doctors or inner city math teachers or whatever. That doesn't mean it doesn't come with it's own baggage/challenges/frustrations/mental health issues and that engineers don't get to complain about them just because they're the least fucked in your view of what an 'easy' job is. Software engineers are classified by the CDC wrt to suicide incidence higher than a lot of the jobs you're mentioning there (8th place out of 22). I guess being spoiled comes with the price of offing yourself more often than doctors, lawyers or teachers.
  - adhdsufferer 5y ago
    Your life isn't just your job. And your other qualities influence your career choice. Software attracts different people than law and medicine and teaching. If I had to bet, for example, I would guess that loneliness is more common among software engineers than lawyers, doctors, and teachers.
- lwn 5y ago
  I've had many trades as well, before ending up as a software engineer. My hardest, most exhausting job was in the food industry. Entering office live was easy, work a picnic. Plenty of energy coming home after work. With my previous attained 'work mentality' I could way more done! ... and last year I had an extreme burn-out event (hospitalised). In my experience burn-out is a combination of steadily (for a longer period of time) putting in more energy then available, not taking enough rest and most importantly: emotional disturbance (going against your nature/ will) For example: Work hard, have a bad relationship at home or at work can easily lead to burn-out. Furthermore, software engineering seem to have some unique combined traits which sets it apart: 1. Creative proces which is hard to manage and easily leads to misunderstandings and conflict with customer or employer. 2. Screen-working enables stretching concentration well beyond human limits. 3. Modern western society tends to personally identify oneself with work too much (which is an easy trigger for emotional disturbance) 4. Programming is fun! Devs are being treated so well! So why not endure those problems a bit longer ...
eeZah7Ux 5y ago
The first sentence is false and the second is whataboutism.

This myth of "spoiled developers" definitely feeds into the problem. People feel like they cannot complain about their work conditions because they have nice toys and benefits at the work place.

playpause 5y ago
As a long time developer, I think we are pretty good at complaining about our work conditions, and are spoiled in many ways. We also have some very valid complaints about the bullshit we have to deal with, interfering micromanagers making us less productive and less happy, etc. All these things can be true at once. You don’t need to dismiss any of them as myths.

Verdex 5y ago

If it turned out that teachers (and everyone else) also have an ~80% burnout rate, then that only shows a more fundamental problem. Not that anyone is being spoiled. And it's okay if that starts by finding out that developers have a ~80% burnout rate. To be fair, you are at least correct that we should run the same study against teachers. (And really as many other people as we can find the time/money for.)

varelaz 5y ago
The thing is that these bare numbers say nothing without "in compare with". There should be comparison with other job types or historical at least to make certain assumptions. Also for such burnouts developers often have some type of compensation, while other jobs rather not. Compare for example developers problems with Amazon devilery service drivers problems with toilets. A lot of jobs just luck minimal comfort and compesations and hardly can complain.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

MattGaiser 5y ago

Given the turnover in teaching in many places, they are also burned out.

eplanit 5y ago

I think we learned this past year that at least a few teachers are quite exceptionally spoiled (disappointing, and for me a bit surprising). Maybe I'm biased by the witnessing the antics of the California teachers union, but their ranks have been an embarrassment to the profession. Their continued push-back against returning to regular classes has grown tiresome (California has decided, with union pressure, to defy CDC guidelines and require masking and distancing despite vaccines and low risk -- "follow the science" is no longer spoken by them). https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-school-board-members-caught-disparaging-parents-accidental-zoom-broadcast-n1258351 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-school-board... https://meaww.com/alissa-piro-california-teacher-zoom-rant-how-to-do-job-parents-schools-closed-whites-get-everything https://meaww.com/alissa-piro-california-teacher-zoom-rant-h...

renewiltord 5y ago
Yeah, teachers benefit from a social cachet that is outsize related to their true efficacy. They are not nearly as effective or as important as people make them out to be.
- kube-system 5y ago
  They are very important, but not always for the reasons that people make them out to be important.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    Mind explaining? As institutional day care? I believe it.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      I wouldn’t go that far. I do think that, particularly for primary education, some people tend to overinflate the importance of teachers as academic experts and discount their social importance. The value that school provides kids, parents, and the community is multifaceted. If anything, primary educations are very important, but not because kids learn basic arithmetic, but because they learn the foundational social concepts that will permanently shape their ideas about justice, respect, cooperation, etc.

sethammons 5y ago

I've been a teacher (and a manager, all levels of software engineer up to principal, a construction worker, an inner-city and high gang-presence high school math teacher, a graphic designer, and worked under a yard maintenance guy from Mexico, and several other small jobs. The software stuff has been among the easiest jobs (even with mission critical systems failing in the middle of the night affecting millions of dollars in revenue) I've experienced. Software developers at many, many companies are absolutely spoiled. I know there have to be negative stories, but on the whole, pay, benefits, perks, and even hours are better than a great many industries. Even game shop crunch hours seem about on par for doctors in residency, some (most?) finance shops, and I'm sure other less notable roles like my friend who works in water distribution who puts in 90 hour weeks regularly and just got off a 39 hour shift.

decebalus1 5y ago
On the same logic, you can find tons of other 'easier' jobs that still experience burnout or boreout. What you're unconsciously doing is a form of the `fallacy of relative privation`. Sure, software engineering is an easier job than resident doctors or inner city math teachers or whatever. That doesn't mean it doesn't come with it's own baggage/challenges/frustrations/mental health issues and that engineers don't get to complain about them just because they're the least fucked in your view of what an 'easy' job is. Software engineers are classified by the CDC wrt to suicide incidence higher than a lot of the jobs you're mentioning there (8th place out of 22). I guess being spoiled comes with the price of offing yourself more often than doctors, lawyers or teachers.
- adhdsufferer 5y ago
  Your life isn't just your job. And your other qualities influence your career choice. Software attracts different people than law and medicine and teaching. If I had to bet, for example, I would guess that loneliness is more common among software engineers than lawyers, doctors, and teachers.
lwn 5y ago
I've had many trades as well, before ending up as a software engineer. My hardest, most exhausting job was in the food industry. Entering office live was easy, work a picnic. Plenty of energy coming home after work. With my previous attained 'work mentality' I could way more done! ... and last year I had an extreme burn-out event (hospitalised). In my experience burn-out is a combination of steadily (for a longer period of time) putting in more energy then available, not taking enough rest and most importantly: emotional disturbance (going against your nature/ will) For example: Work hard, have a bad relationship at home or at work can easily lead to burn-out. Furthermore, software engineering seem to have some unique combined traits which sets it apart: 1. Creative proces which is hard to manage and easily leads to misunderstandings and conflict with customer or employer. 2. Screen-working enables stretching concentration well beyond human limits. 3. Modern western society tends to personally identify oneself with work too much (which is an easy trigger for emotional disturbance) 4. Programming is fun! Devs are being treated so well! So why not endure those problems a bit longer ...

eeZah7Ux 5y ago

The first sentence is false and the second is whataboutism.