5 ms·

This is why I have a tough time putting much weight into the soft-sciences. I don't see any operational definition of "Burnout" so this is like asking people if

This is why I have a tough time putting much weight into the soft-sciences. I don't see any operational definition of "Burnout" so this is like asking people if they feel "fast". How about something like "How many times a week do you feel like not coming into work?" But these subjective terms are useless.

antris 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout Burnout is not just a subjective term. It is a highly researched syndrome and can be tested for.
- Someone 5y ago
  Yes, but I doubt those questioned knew and used that definition. Reading https://haystack-books.s3.amazonaws.com/Study+to+understand+the+impact+of+COVID-19+on+Software+Engineers+-+Full+Report.pdf https://haystack-books.s3.amazonaws.com/Study+to+understand+... it certainly wasn’t tested for. It’s all self-reported, and the question didn’t even ask whether the subjects thought they were burnt out, just whether they felt like it (for me, that’s a weaker thing)
- codyswann 5y ago
  If that's the definition they're using, put it in the paper. Otherwise, it's just like asking someone if they feel "hot" at work. And if it can be tested for, why not do a study that tests for it? Otherwise, it's like asking people if they feel like they have cancer.
  - antris 5y ago
    Studies aren't there to cater to your ignorance. Burnout is well defined, and generally quite well understood by even the general public, this is not news. You switched from "soft science is all subjective nonsense" to "I don't like how it's written". You don't have to like it.
    - acatnamedjoe 5y ago
      I don't think burnout is well defined at all - at least not as used colloquially. As I understand it there's a specific medical/ mental health condition called burnout that is pretty horrendous. But in everyday usage it can mean everything from that medical definition to "I've had a rough week". I don't see any reason to assume which end of that scale a survey respondent might be thinking of when they answer.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - codyswann 5y ago
      Any serious professional or academic study contains a "Definition of Terms" section that explains how the researchers are defining key elements in their study. https://www.slideshare.net/myotakustyle/definition-of-terms-59798301#:~:text=Definition%20of%20terms%20is%20usually,the%20study%20are%20clearly%20defined https://www.slideshare.net/myotakustyle/definition-of-terms-.... https://www.mvorganizing.org/why-is-a-definition-of-terms-section-important-in-a-research-study/ https://www.mvorganizing.org/why-is-a-definition-of-terms-se...
luffapi 5y ago
You should be able to measure burnout by watching employee churn. Something software development is notorious for. I don’t think people jump companies every year and a half in most industries.
- ttamslam 5y ago
  Although I also think some part of that has to do with raise seeking. Lots of confounding variables at play.
- sethammons 5y ago
  That's a very interesting insight! I was thinking of leading indicators and wasn't thinking lagging indicators like churn.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  My last job lost all Sr. developers including me (I think 7 of 12 total developers) in an 8 month period. Everyone was absolutely fried and could not go on. Some of those people had been there between 4 and 10 years.
- mgkimsal 5y ago
  they would if they could get a 20% raise without much fuss. was reading a reddit post on an airline host who was 'on the road' to 6 figure income - just needed to stay with the same airline for another 5-6 years. "If you switch to another airline, you'll start at the bottom again". It's so strange to think that goes on, but apparently it does. Apparently pilots, to some degree as well. Even if you had 15 years of flawless piloting for airline X, moving to airline Y, you'd start off near the bottom again. What other professions are like this?
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    It makes sense from the company perspective. Pay for experience with your things, coworkers and processes - reward loyalty. I think it would make even more sense for software developement, since the code base usually is so extremely specific that there are no other experts then those who work with it. Still the best way to increase wage is to change job to something you have no clue in until a year or two working with it. Saving pennies for a dollar.
shusaku 5y ago
I don’t think the soft scientists should take heat because what appears to be a report released by a marketing company was less than rigorous…

antris 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout Burnout is not just a subjective term. It is a highly researched syndrome and can be tested for.

Someone 5y ago
Yes, but I doubt those questioned knew and used that definition. Reading https://haystack-books.s3.amazonaws.com/Study+to+understand+the+impact+of+COVID-19+on+Software+Engineers+-+Full+Report.pdf https://haystack-books.s3.amazonaws.com/Study+to+understand+... it certainly wasn’t tested for. It’s all self-reported, and the question didn’t even ask whether the subjects thought they were burnt out, just whether they felt like it (for me, that’s a weaker thing)
codyswann 5y ago
If that's the definition they're using, put it in the paper. Otherwise, it's just like asking someone if they feel "hot" at work. And if it can be tested for, why not do a study that tests for it? Otherwise, it's like asking people if they feel like they have cancer.
- antris 5y ago
  Studies aren't there to cater to your ignorance. Burnout is well defined, and generally quite well understood by even the general public, this is not news. You switched from "soft science is all subjective nonsense" to "I don't like how it's written". You don't have to like it.
  - acatnamedjoe 5y ago
    I don't think burnout is well defined at all - at least not as used colloquially. As I understand it there's a specific medical/ mental health condition called burnout that is pretty horrendous. But in everyday usage it can mean everything from that medical definition to "I've had a rough week". I don't see any reason to assume which end of that scale a survey respondent might be thinking of when they answer.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - codyswann 5y ago
    Any serious professional or academic study contains a "Definition of Terms" section that explains how the researchers are defining key elements in their study. https://www.slideshare.net/myotakustyle/definition-of-terms-59798301#:~:text=Definition%20of%20terms%20is%20usually,the%20study%20are%20clearly%20defined https://www.slideshare.net/myotakustyle/definition-of-terms-.... https://www.mvorganizing.org/why-is-a-definition-of-terms-section-important-in-a-research-study/ https://www.mvorganizing.org/why-is-a-definition-of-terms-se...

luffapi 5y ago

You should be able to measure burnout by watching employee churn. Something software development is notorious for. I don’t think people jump companies every year and a half in most industries.

ttamslam 5y ago
Although I also think some part of that has to do with raise seeking. Lots of confounding variables at play.
sethammons 5y ago
That's a very interesting insight! I was thinking of leading indicators and wasn't thinking lagging indicators like churn.
wonderwonder 5y ago
My last job lost all Sr. developers including me (I think 7 of 12 total developers) in an 8 month period. Everyone was absolutely fried and could not go on. Some of those people had been there between 4 and 10 years.
mgkimsal 5y ago
they would if they could get a 20% raise without much fuss. was reading a reddit post on an airline host who was 'on the road' to 6 figure income - just needed to stay with the same airline for another 5-6 years. "If you switch to another airline, you'll start at the bottom again". It's so strange to think that goes on, but apparently it does. Apparently pilots, to some degree as well. Even if you had 15 years of flawless piloting for airline X, moving to airline Y, you'd start off near the bottom again. What other professions are like this?
- rightbyte 5y ago
  It makes sense from the company perspective. Pay for experience with your things, coworkers and processes - reward loyalty. I think it would make even more sense for software developement, since the code base usually is so extremely specific that there are no other experts then those who work with it. Still the best way to increase wage is to change job to something you have no clue in until a year or two working with it. Saving pennies for a dollar.

shusaku 5y ago

I don’t think the soft scientists should take heat because what appears to be a report released by a marketing company was less than rigorous…