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Got to admit that watching people struggle with the question of what to do without a job to fill their time is just completely wild to me. It is difficult for m

Got to admit that watching people struggle with the question of what to do without a job to fill their time is just completely wild to me. It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them. I have a list of things I'd like to do a mile long that I know I'll never actually find time to do because I've prioritized other shit I want to do.

luffapi 5y ago
Exactly I have so many hobbies, social opportunities, home improvement projects, chores… that get neglected because the bulk of my time and energy goes to work. I’ve saved enough to have multiple year breaks in my career and not once was I at a loss for something to do. Quite the opposite, it was apparent exactly how much of my life was being wasted on goals I found uninteresting (at best), all in the name of not starving to death or living on the street.
nend 5y ago
It's a completely wild thought to most people. It's one of the reasons why so many people end up struggling with it. "That won't happen to me, no need to make a plan for how to avoid it or make a plan for what to do if it happens, because it's not going to happen." Obviously not everyone has problems filling their time. But for most people it's difficult to imagine what it'd take to fill years worth of free time, when they've never experienced anything close to having to do that.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them It’s not that simple. I felt the same way before I crossed the FIRE threshold and took some time off (mini-FIRE, I guess). It turns out, most of the things I had been putting off weren’t as time consuming as I thought. I found myself regretting not doing many of them sooner, such as putting a few hours in on weekdays and weekends or scheduling a 1-week vacation to make a trip happen. It’s hard to truly understand until you’ve crossed the threshold and tried it, but there’s a certain aspect of FIRE discussions that divides life too much into pre-retirement and post-retirement activities in a way that isn’t always necessary. In retrospect, there was little stopping me from doing most of the things I wanted to do while I was working, and plenty of people do manage to accomplish a balance of work and other things just fine. I’m not alone in this. Even the author of this blog later returned to work after his interest in his writing hobby slowed to a crawl, his friendships started dwindling, and his relationship came to an end at least in part due to the FIRE lifestyle: https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/ https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  I think there might be a component here of people able to reasonably achieve FIRE level wealth are already predisposed towards functioning well in the work place, and therefore maybe not so well suited for a life outside of that institution. When I say I have projects I know I'll never do, I'm talking about the kinds of things that range from "will probably take several years" to "might not be completable in the lifetime I have remaining". Even if each of those things takes an eighth of the time I think they will, I still easily have enough to fill up the rest of my life even if I never do anything purely for the enjoyment of it.
- driverdan 5y ago
  > It’s not that simple. It is. I took about 18 months off a few years ago. It was great until I ran out of money. My main motivator was a very big project (converting a bus to live in) that took a lot of time but after that was done I still did lots of other projects, played video games, and traveled. In some ways I missed contributing my skills to a team but, other than needing money, I wasn't strongly motivated to go back to work.
  - PragmaticPulp 5y ago
    > It is. I took about 18 months off a few years ago. It was great until I ran out of money. I also took a lot of time off, albeit after crossing the threshold of FIRE. My comment was coming from a position of someone who has achieved FIRE.
    - driverdan 5y ago
      How much time did you take off? I have more projects than I would have time if I FIREd. I think the main thing is you have to be some form of maker, you can't be just a consumer. I have so many things I want to build (eg my next vehicle conversion) and a lot of software projects. Then there's the list of things I'd like to learn and places I want to visit. When my dad retired he actually got busier than when he worked full time. He literally has enough projects to last the rest of his life.
- 5y ago
the_only_law 5y ago
> It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them. There are so many things I like to do or would love to do if I didn’t ha RTP work, but I doubt it would be maintainable in the sort of withdraws I see early FIRE people talk about taking. I often have problems figuring out how to afford my hobbies while working.
Frost1x 5y ago
The whole deeply-seated protestant belief that work ethic instills value in life always escapes me as well. There are so many things I'd love to do that don't even require a lot of financial resources or resources in general to accomplish beyond time, but unfortunately, due to needs like having a home and food, I have to work quite a bit and just can't find the time to do these things in those gaps. I understand the bordem argument but I think that sort of boredom is socially conditioned on us. During my time at university I worked almost constantly. I remember after graduating and getting a job only working 8-hours a day, I suddenly found myself with excess fee time I didn't know what to do with. I distinctively remember my first day returning from work, that I got home and was lost: what do I want to do (not what do I need to do or should do)? I have no papers or assignments due tomorrow. No major project efforts weeks behind I'm trying to catch up on, no looming deadlines, no new tech I need to learn to be ready for the next job, etc. I came to the realization that I was bored and didn't know what to do because I was conditioned to be constantly busy working, largely for other people and not myself --from my parents, church, schooling, society, and so on. A goal can be for yourself but often the processes to attain said goals are for other people. I chose to do certain aspects because they were interesting but it was more so because I needed to, had to or should do to get to my goal. I believe most people don't need work to find value in life, they need the time to discover what it is they value, the basic resources to pursue it, and ability to live decently while doing it. Unfortunately, we have an economic system that doesn't really allow for that. There is some choice in our economic system but for many, that choice is an illusion or at best, heavily constrained. I believe we need to move away from this work tied to life value concept, but I believe too many people currently rely on exploiting this concept to have others create value for themselves while constantly selling the idea of work giving purpose in life so they can pursue their goals without working. The issue isn't that work exists and is needed to maintain certain structure to society, it's more that it's used as shackles on many.
- WA 5y ago
  > There are so many things I'd love to do Like what?
  - Frost1x 5y ago
alisonatwork 5y ago
It's truly astonishing how many people apparently have a psychological need to be occupied with work in order to find meaning from their life. I can think of nothing better than to finally never have to worry about working just to cover my rent and food. Being in tech, I've had the privilege to be able to quit my job every few years and take extended sabbaticals. Without fail those breaks have been the best times of my life. Even when I just spent the time "doing nothing" from the point of view of an outsider - not taking up a new hobby, not working on any personal projects, not operating a side-hustle, just sitting around watching the world go by... it was fine. It was better than fine - it was great. It seems bizarre to me that anyone would prefer structured labor to that kind of freedom, but it turns out some people do. I just wish we had a society that would allow for both types of people to have the life they want.
- handrous 5y ago
  I don't think most people, except maybe in the EU, experience enough time-off to ever feel what it's like to not be working, and also not be trying to work. Weekends and evenings are barely enough—if they are at all—to catch up with chores and such that accumulated during working hours (that is, unpaid work). Most folks have a couple weeks of vacation, which will tend to be eaten up finally fixing the fence or that dripping faucet or else frantically trying to do some Big Thing (usually some kind of trip) because actual time off is so rare that you don't want to "waste it". Most people don't get any useful amount of actual free time until they retire. No wonder so many are lost when they do. They've had no practice at it, and have had all their time-requiring interests beaten out of them over decades of the work-week utterly dominating the rhythms of their life.
SCNP 5y ago
To add to this, since the work I do at my job aligns very closely to my hobbies, I find that work saps my interest in putting time into said hobbies. If I were able to spend the entirety of my mental capacity on things I _want_ to do, I might do more. Who is to say. As a counterpoint, work can offer opportunities to work with technologies or concepts you might not think of or be able to afford while working on a personal project.
CleverLikeAnOx 5y ago
I am in the same boat. I am 6 months into FIRE, and the list of things to do is growing, not shrinking. However, I would say that some things on the list turn out to be false. That is, I like the idea of doing them, but not enough to actually do it. So do account for some of your post FIRE ideas turning out to be just daydreams you aren't actually committed to.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Not something I really have to worry about since, unless I find out I have a fatal disease, FIRE is not a realistic possibility for me.
- WA 5y ago
  Care to share a few examples? I know this feeling of the idea of doing them. I'm conflicted about art (drawing, painting). In some way, I want to be a good painter, on the other hand, there is no painting in me that needs to come out.
  - CleverLikeAnOx 5y ago
    For me, it's writing. Exactly as you described painting. Slowly some ideas are forming, but it will be years if ever before I get to it.

luffapi 5y ago

Exactly I have so many hobbies, social opportunities, home improvement projects, chores… that get neglected because the bulk of my time and energy goes to work. I’ve saved enough to have multiple year breaks in my career and not once was I at a loss for something to do. Quite the opposite, it was apparent exactly how much of my life was being wasted on goals I found uninteresting (at best), all in the name of not starving to death or living on the street.

nend 5y ago

It's a completely wild thought to most people. It's one of the reasons why so many people end up struggling with it. "That won't happen to me, no need to make a plan for how to avoid it or make a plan for what to do if it happens, because it's not going to happen." Obviously not everyone has problems filling their time. But for most people it's difficult to imagine what it'd take to fill years worth of free time, when they've never experienced anything close to having to do that.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them It’s not that simple. I felt the same way before I crossed the FIRE threshold and took some time off (mini-FIRE, I guess). It turns out, most of the things I had been putting off weren’t as time consuming as I thought. I found myself regretting not doing many of them sooner, such as putting a few hours in on weekdays and weekends or scheduling a 1-week vacation to make a trip happen. It’s hard to truly understand until you’ve crossed the threshold and tried it, but there’s a certain aspect of FIRE discussions that divides life too much into pre-retirement and post-retirement activities in a way that isn’t always necessary. In retrospect, there was little stopping me from doing most of the things I wanted to do while I was working, and plenty of people do manage to accomplish a balance of work and other things just fine. I’m not alone in this. Even the author of this blog later returned to work after his interest in his writing hobby slowed to a crawl, his friendships started dwindling, and his relationship came to an end at least in part due to the FIRE lifestyle: https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/ https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
I think there might be a component here of people able to reasonably achieve FIRE level wealth are already predisposed towards functioning well in the work place, and therefore maybe not so well suited for a life outside of that institution. When I say I have projects I know I'll never do, I'm talking about the kinds of things that range from "will probably take several years" to "might not be completable in the lifetime I have remaining". Even if each of those things takes an eighth of the time I think they will, I still easily have enough to fill up the rest of my life even if I never do anything purely for the enjoyment of it.
driverdan 5y ago
> It’s not that simple. It is. I took about 18 months off a few years ago. It was great until I ran out of money. My main motivator was a very big project (converting a bus to live in) that took a lot of time but after that was done I still did lots of other projects, played video games, and traveled. In some ways I missed contributing my skills to a team but, other than needing money, I wasn't strongly motivated to go back to work.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > It is. I took about 18 months off a few years ago. It was great until I ran out of money. I also took a lot of time off, albeit after crossing the threshold of FIRE. My comment was coming from a position of someone who has achieved FIRE.
  - driverdan 5y ago
    How much time did you take off? I have more projects than I would have time if I FIREd. I think the main thing is you have to be some form of maker, you can't be just a consumer. I have so many things I want to build (eg my next vehicle conversion) and a lot of software projects. Then there's the list of things I'd like to learn and places I want to visit. When my dad retired he actually got busier than when he worked full time. He literally has enough projects to last the rest of his life.
5y ago

the_only_law 5y ago

> It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them. There are so many things I like to do or would love to do if I didn’t ha RTP work, but I doubt it would be maintainable in the sort of withdraws I see early FIRE people talk about taking. I often have problems figuring out how to afford my hobbies while working.

Frost1x 5y ago

The whole deeply-seated protestant belief that work ethic instills value in life always escapes me as well. There are so many things I'd love to do that don't even require a lot of financial resources or resources in general to accomplish beyond time, but unfortunately, due to needs like having a home and food, I have to work quite a bit and just can't find the time to do these things in those gaps. I understand the bordem argument but I think that sort of boredom is socially conditioned on us. During my time at university I worked almost constantly. I remember after graduating and getting a job only working 8-hours a day, I suddenly found myself with excess fee time I didn't know what to do with. I distinctively remember my first day returning from work, that I got home and was lost: what do I want to do (not what do I need to do or should do)? I have no papers or assignments due tomorrow. No major project efforts weeks behind I'm trying to catch up on, no looming deadlines, no new tech I need to learn to be ready for the next job, etc. I came to the realization that I was bored and didn't know what to do because I was conditioned to be constantly busy working, largely for other people and not myself --from my parents, church, schooling, society, and so on. A goal can be for yourself but often the processes to attain said goals are for other people. I chose to do certain aspects because they were interesting but it was more so because I needed to, had to or should do to get to my goal. I believe most people don't need work to find value in life, they need the time to discover what it is they value, the basic resources to pursue it, and ability to live decently while doing it. Unfortunately, we have an economic system that doesn't really allow for that. There is some choice in our economic system but for many, that choice is an illusion or at best, heavily constrained. I believe we need to move away from this work tied to life value concept, but I believe too many people currently rely on exploiting this concept to have others create value for themselves while constantly selling the idea of work giving purpose in life so they can pursue their goals without working. The issue isn't that work exists and is needed to maintain certain structure to society, it's more that it's used as shackles on many.

WA 5y ago
> There are so many things I'd love to do Like what?
- Frost1x 5y ago

alisonatwork 5y ago

It's truly astonishing how many people apparently have a psychological need to be occupied with work in order to find meaning from their life. I can think of nothing better than to finally never have to worry about working just to cover my rent and food. Being in tech, I've had the privilege to be able to quit my job every few years and take extended sabbaticals. Without fail those breaks have been the best times of my life. Even when I just spent the time "doing nothing" from the point of view of an outsider - not taking up a new hobby, not working on any personal projects, not operating a side-hustle, just sitting around watching the world go by... it was fine. It was better than fine - it was great. It seems bizarre to me that anyone would prefer structured labor to that kind of freedom, but it turns out some people do. I just wish we had a society that would allow for both types of people to have the life they want.

handrous 5y ago
I don't think most people, except maybe in the EU, experience enough time-off to ever feel what it's like to not be working, and also not be trying to work. Weekends and evenings are barely enough—if they are at all—to catch up with chores and such that accumulated during working hours (that is, unpaid work). Most folks have a couple weeks of vacation, which will tend to be eaten up finally fixing the fence or that dripping faucet or else frantically trying to do some Big Thing (usually some kind of trip) because actual time off is so rare that you don't want to "waste it". Most people don't get any useful amount of actual free time until they retire. No wonder so many are lost when they do. They've had no practice at it, and have had all their time-requiring interests beaten out of them over decades of the work-week utterly dominating the rhythms of their life.

SCNP 5y ago

To add to this, since the work I do at my job aligns very closely to my hobbies, I find that work saps my interest in putting time into said hobbies. If I were able to spend the entirety of my mental capacity on things I _want_ to do, I might do more. Who is to say. As a counterpoint, work can offer opportunities to work with technologies or concepts you might not think of or be able to afford while working on a personal project.

CleverLikeAnOx 5y ago

I am in the same boat. I am 6 months into FIRE, and the list of things to do is growing, not shrinking. However, I would say that some things on the list turn out to be false. That is, I like the idea of doing them, but not enough to actually do it. So do account for some of your post FIRE ideas turning out to be just daydreams you aren't actually committed to.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
Not something I really have to worry about since, unless I find out I have a fatal disease, FIRE is not a realistic possibility for me.
WA 5y ago
Care to share a few examples? I know this feeling of the idea of doing them. I'm conflicted about art (drawing, painting). In some way, I want to be a good painter, on the other hand, there is no painting in me that needs to come out.
- CleverLikeAnOx 5y ago
  For me, it's writing. Exactly as you described painting. Slowly some ideas are forming, but it will be years if ever before I get to it.