5 ms·

Isn't maintaining a solo pace much harder than maintaining pace inside a peloton (and isn't this a huge driver of the various strategies in long distance cycle

by taneq 5y ago

Isn't maintaining a solo pace much harder than maintaining pace inside a peloton (and isn't this a huge driver of the various strategies in long distance cycle racing)? Is this guy riding by different rules (eg. allowed to ride more hours per day or something) or is he just that much faster than the Tour de France cyclists? And if the latter, why isn't he out winning Tour de France?

tokai 5y ago
He is riding three times longer each day. He is riding at a steady pace and not racing anyone.
freetime2 5y ago
He is riding at a much slower pace, and many more hours per day, than the Tour de France cyclists.
- brewdad 5y ago
  He's also riding the transfers between stage start and end points. Sometimes there can be 100 miles or more between where one stage ends and the next one begins. This largely happens when the race moves from mountain racing to flatter courses. The competitors take a team bus.
alisonkisk 5y ago
The Tour is a little over 100mi/day, up to 6hr /day. This Alt Tour was 200mi/day, 12hr/day You'd need more precise bookkeeping to calculate how impressive his speed was, but his endurance is incredible. A confounding factor is that at high speeds going a little faster takes a bunch more energy/biological resources (both wind and biomuscular effects), which counteracts some of the peloton advantage.
- boringg 5y ago
  Strava profile --> https://www.strava.com/pros/3813861#interval?interval=202127&interval_type=week&chart_type=miles&year_offset=0 https://www.strava.com/pros/3813861#interval?interval=202127...
boringg 5y ago
He's riding a completely different ride. He isn't riding it for time per se but rather amount of days. Yellow Jersey at the tour de france rides for total elapsed time. Completely different levels of work involved. For example - it says Morton was riding for 12 hours a day. Same riders on tour would be doing that ride in significantly less time. A completely different ride and bicycling capabilities. I'm not diminishing what he has accomplished (which is awesome) just pointing out the differences. For example: Sepp Kuss who won the stage the other day (https://www.strava.com/activities/5612150086 https://www.strava.com/activities/5612150086) effort vs the ride by Morton Lachlan (https://www.strava.com/activities/5595556740 https://www.strava.com/activities/5595556740). Morton's riding a roughly different ride (same terrain but different set up) and riding by about half the speed and 30% more distance.
- taneq 5y ago
  Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense.
- 11235813213455 5y ago
  competitive riders also have all the road for themselves, makes things a bit easier
- tksb 5y ago
  While this is all technically true. Lachlan and Sepp both are former winners of the Tour of Utah in the USA, which is shorter than the tour, but generally at a higher altitude with alpine climbs rivaling the staples of the Alps/Pyrenees in the TdF. Lachlan was one of handful of pro/ex-pro riders to start tackling the Everesting[1] record as well, which is a clear example of his ability to ride at (and above) the "level of work involved" in a TdF mountain stage. [1]:https://everesting.cc https://everesting.cc
- johnofthesea 5y ago
  > and 30% more distance closer to 40% so spreading the effort through hours per day is understandable.
Cyclone_ 5y ago
Yes it is harder when no one else is working for you, not sure though if he did a time trial (short days) or had rest days. He also doesn't have any SAG, which makes it much harder as he found out with his di2.
- boringg 5y ago
  He rode it with a di2? Why would you do that - batteries based is the worst for a long ride.
  - Cyclone_ 5y ago
    They last quite a while, I've used di2 and SRAM red. If I were riding this I would only need to charge it 2 or 3 times to get me through it.
  - lonelyasacloud 5y ago
    Not so much in this case. So as long as it's not off-road and it's properly charged, then electronic shifting is very, very reliable and standard kit for many ultra-distance riders, see, e.g. https://www.redbull.com/nz-en/trans-continental-race-kit-guide https://www.redbull.com/nz-en/trans-continental-race-kit-gui... and the late, great Mike Hall's bike https://road.cc/content/tech-news/219030-bike-check-mike-halls-kinesis-gf-ti-ready-5300km-india-pacific-wheel-race https://road.cc/content/tech-news/219030-bike-check-mike-hal... Benefits from an ultra-distance pov include quicker/cleaner shifting holds momentum better. Reduced chain rub and gear maintenance requirements. Less force is required to change gear which decreases the risk of repetitive strain injury. And the ability to add satellite shifters (aka "blips") to aero bars and the tops, which makes it easier to hold a riding position. Oh, and they can also be set up to be more intuitive to use than trying to remember how to juggle front and the rear mech's when completely and utterly spent :-) All incremental at normal scale, but I can definitely see why it'd worth it to him at the scale of Lachlan's rides.
    - boringg 5y ago
      Keyword - properly charged. Thats the risk - the rest of it makes a lot of sense -- but the charging component is the issue. And if it goes dead your locked in. Surprising choice for a long race based on durability thats all. A guess it is a trade off decision -- work vs reliability.
discreteevent 5y ago
He is covering a lot more distance than the peleton. The peleton just rides the stage. Morton has to ride from stage to stage where in some cases the peleton may take a flight to get to the start of the next stage. Also he is carrying a lot more weight. He has a tent, cooking equipment etc.
alistairSH 5y ago
Correct. As noted elsewhere, Lachlan didn't race a formal event. He did the ride for charity. The goal was to cover the entire Tour distance (transfers included) in less time than the actual race. And he met that goal. Drafting (riding behind another cyclist) can cut the effort by about 30%. So, the rider at the front of the peloton might be doing ~400 watts (and likely more, especially in the last hour of a ~5 hour stage), while cyclists in the back are only doing ~280 watts. To put that in context, as an average masters cyclist, 400 watts is an output I can do for a couple of minutes at most. And 280 watts is an output I can maintain for about an hour. A top Tour overall contender will average >200 watts over the stage, and on a critical climb, might average 350-400 watts mostly solo (or in small groups) for 10-30 minutes. Discussion of Uran's power in a stage win from 2017... https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/rigoberto-urans-power-output-stage-9-tour-de-france-analysed-343585 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/rig... Not from the Tour, but analysis of a young pro's power during his 2019 win at the 1-day Amstel Gold race... https://cyclingtips.com/2019/04/mathieu-van-der-poel-power-watts-amstel-gold/ https://cyclingtips.com/2019/04/mathieu-van-der-poel-power-w...
- matsemann 5y ago
  One thing to note is that their output is also crazy compared to their weight. Looking at the numbers I sometimes think I could stay in the peloton. But then I realize I'd be dropped as a hot potato in the first small uphill segment.
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    Absolutely. A strong recreational cyclist might have an FTP of 4 w/kg (FTP = functional threshold power = power one can maintain for an hour in perfect conditions). I can hit that target at peak fitness, but most of the year, I'm well below. Mathieu van der Poel is about 75kg with an FTP above 400 watts. Over 5w/kg. He's a relatively heavy professional cyclist, but an amazing all around cyclist who can climb, sprint, and win just about any day. Tadej Pogacar, the current Tour leader, weighs about the same as me (68kg), but has an FTP somewhere around 400 watts. Or 5.8w/kg. Of course, 1 hour power isn't everything. The 5, 10, and 20 minute power these guys can generate is even more mind-boggling (not to mention more critical on race day, as they have to cover attacks and break-aways).
dr-detroit 5y ago
Lachlan is a pro racer and no hes not the best or anything. The whole point of Alt Racing challenges is he is doing something that you or I could do. Gravel races and such are supposed to be relatable for every day joe like us. Furthermore I would just add that you will never find a human being who is "just faster" than everyone else. There are many factors at play but UCI has rules about the shape of the bike and human beings can only push so much air out of the way.

by taneq 5y ago

tokai 5y ago

He is riding three times longer each day. He is riding at a steady pace and not racing anyone.

freetime2 5y ago

He is riding at a much slower pace, and many more hours per day, than the Tour de France cyclists.

brewdad 5y ago
He's also riding the transfers between stage start and end points. Sometimes there can be 100 miles or more between where one stage ends and the next one begins. This largely happens when the race moves from mountain racing to flatter courses. The competitors take a team bus.

alisonkisk 5y ago

The Tour is a little over 100mi/day, up to 6hr /day. This Alt Tour was 200mi/day, 12hr/day You'd need more precise bookkeeping to calculate how impressive his speed was, but his endurance is incredible. A confounding factor is that at high speeds going a little faster takes a bunch more energy/biological resources (both wind and biomuscular effects), which counteracts some of the peloton advantage.

boringg 5y ago
Strava profile --> https://www.strava.com/pros/3813861#interval?interval=202127&interval_type=week&chart_type=miles&year_offset=0 https://www.strava.com/pros/3813861#interval?interval=202127...

boringg 5y ago

He's riding a completely different ride. He isn't riding it for time per se but rather amount of days. Yellow Jersey at the tour de france rides for total elapsed time. Completely different levels of work involved. For example - it says Morton was riding for 12 hours a day. Same riders on tour would be doing that ride in significantly less time. A completely different ride and bicycling capabilities. I'm not diminishing what he has accomplished (which is awesome) just pointing out the differences. For example: Sepp Kuss who won the stage the other day (https://www.strava.com/activities/5612150086 https://www.strava.com/activities/5612150086) effort vs the ride by Morton Lachlan (https://www.strava.com/activities/5595556740 https://www.strava.com/activities/5595556740). Morton's riding a roughly different ride (same terrain but different set up) and riding by about half the speed and 30% more distance.

taneq 5y ago
Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense.
11235813213455 5y ago
competitive riders also have all the road for themselves, makes things a bit easier
tksb 5y ago
While this is all technically true. Lachlan and Sepp both are former winners of the Tour of Utah in the USA, which is shorter than the tour, but generally at a higher altitude with alpine climbs rivaling the staples of the Alps/Pyrenees in the TdF. Lachlan was one of handful of pro/ex-pro riders to start tackling the Everesting[1] record as well, which is a clear example of his ability to ride at (and above) the "level of work involved" in a TdF mountain stage. [1]:https://everesting.cc https://everesting.cc
johnofthesea 5y ago
> and 30% more distance closer to 40% so spreading the effort through hours per day is understandable.

Cyclone_ 5y ago

Yes it is harder when no one else is working for you, not sure though if he did a time trial (short days) or had rest days. He also doesn't have any SAG, which makes it much harder as he found out with his di2.

boringg 5y ago
He rode it with a di2? Why would you do that - batteries based is the worst for a long ride.
- Cyclone_ 5y ago
  They last quite a while, I've used di2 and SRAM red. If I were riding this I would only need to charge it 2 or 3 times to get me through it.
- lonelyasacloud 5y ago
  Not so much in this case. So as long as it's not off-road and it's properly charged, then electronic shifting is very, very reliable and standard kit for many ultra-distance riders, see, e.g. https://www.redbull.com/nz-en/trans-continental-race-kit-guide https://www.redbull.com/nz-en/trans-continental-race-kit-gui... and the late, great Mike Hall's bike https://road.cc/content/tech-news/219030-bike-check-mike-halls-kinesis-gf-ti-ready-5300km-india-pacific-wheel-race https://road.cc/content/tech-news/219030-bike-check-mike-hal... Benefits from an ultra-distance pov include quicker/cleaner shifting holds momentum better. Reduced chain rub and gear maintenance requirements. Less force is required to change gear which decreases the risk of repetitive strain injury. And the ability to add satellite shifters (aka "blips") to aero bars and the tops, which makes it easier to hold a riding position. Oh, and they can also be set up to be more intuitive to use than trying to remember how to juggle front and the rear mech's when completely and utterly spent :-) All incremental at normal scale, but I can definitely see why it'd worth it to him at the scale of Lachlan's rides.
  - boringg 5y ago
    Keyword - properly charged. Thats the risk - the rest of it makes a lot of sense -- but the charging component is the issue. And if it goes dead your locked in. Surprising choice for a long race based on durability thats all. A guess it is a trade off decision -- work vs reliability.

discreteevent 5y ago

He is covering a lot more distance than the peleton. The peleton just rides the stage. Morton has to ride from stage to stage where in some cases the peleton may take a flight to get to the start of the next stage. Also he is carrying a lot more weight. He has a tent, cooking equipment etc.

alistairSH 5y ago

Correct. As noted elsewhere, Lachlan didn't race a formal event. He did the ride for charity. The goal was to cover the entire Tour distance (transfers included) in less time than the actual race. And he met that goal. Drafting (riding behind another cyclist) can cut the effort by about 30%. So, the rider at the front of the peloton might be doing ~400 watts (and likely more, especially in the last hour of a ~5 hour stage), while cyclists in the back are only doing ~280 watts. To put that in context, as an average masters cyclist, 400 watts is an output I can do for a couple of minutes at most. And 280 watts is an output I can maintain for about an hour. A top Tour overall contender will average >200 watts over the stage, and on a critical climb, might average 350-400 watts mostly solo (or in small groups) for 10-30 minutes. Discussion of Uran's power in a stage win from 2017... https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/rigoberto-urans-power-output-stage-9-tour-de-france-analysed-343585 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/rig... Not from the Tour, but analysis of a young pro's power during his 2019 win at the 1-day Amstel Gold race... https://cyclingtips.com/2019/04/mathieu-van-der-poel-power-watts-amstel-gold/ https://cyclingtips.com/2019/04/mathieu-van-der-poel-power-w...

matsemann 5y ago
One thing to note is that their output is also crazy compared to their weight. Looking at the numbers I sometimes think I could stay in the peloton. But then I realize I'd be dropped as a hot potato in the first small uphill segment.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Absolutely. A strong recreational cyclist might have an FTP of 4 w/kg (FTP = functional threshold power = power one can maintain for an hour in perfect conditions). I can hit that target at peak fitness, but most of the year, I'm well below. Mathieu van der Poel is about 75kg with an FTP above 400 watts. Over 5w/kg. He's a relatively heavy professional cyclist, but an amazing all around cyclist who can climb, sprint, and win just about any day. Tadej Pogacar, the current Tour leader, weighs about the same as me (68kg), but has an FTP somewhere around 400 watts. Or 5.8w/kg. Of course, 1 hour power isn't everything. The 5, 10, and 20 minute power these guys can generate is even more mind-boggling (not to mention more critical on race day, as they have to cover attacks and break-aways).

dr-detroit 5y ago

Lachlan is a pro racer and no hes not the best or anything. The whole point of Alt Racing challenges is he is doing something that you or I could do. Gravel races and such are supposed to be relatable for every day joe like us. Furthermore I would just add that you will never find a human being who is "just faster" than everyone else. There are many factors at play but UCI has rules about the shape of the bike and human beings can only push so much air out of the way.