6 ms·

The fact that it's about chickens is irrelevant. This is about how viruses evolve when confronted with an immune system. But you are correct that the lower the

The fact that it's about chickens is irrelevant. This is about how viruses evolve when confronted with an immune system. But you are correct that the lower the transmission rate from vaccinated people, the lower the risk of enhanced viruses. But your 95% is debatable. The number goes drastically down depending on which vaccine you use, the new strains, and probably time. My point is that the myth that unvaccinated people are the part of the population creating enhanced variants is false. Before the vaccination propaganda started it was known to everyone that isolating the sick tends to forces the virus to evolve in less dangerous strains.

adriancr 5y ago
> My point is that the myth that unvaccinated people are the part of the population creating enhanced variants is false. Incorrect. By logic, 95% (or whatever % you want) of the vaccinated population will not catch virus. As such, virus cannot evolve in them. Logical right? This is what they study says. > ... anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission ... The vaccines we have PREVENT transmission with various effectiveness. The vaccine in study did NOT. Since viruses could still infect vaccinated chicken, it evolved.
- codeflow2202 5y ago
  The numbers are between 95% of Pfizer at his best and 50% of Sinovac. And we are not vaccinating to avoid a pandemic, we are doing it during the pandemic making the risk of it happening much higher. But the final point I was trying to pass is that isolation of the sick will slowly push the virus to evolve in more contagious but less risky variants. Undetected infections in the vaccinated might cause strains that evade the vaccine and possibly be more dangerous (because of the lack of symptoms and isolation.)
  - adriancr 5y ago
    > And we are not vaccinating to avoid a pandemic, we are doing it during the pandemic making the risk of it happening much higher. I bet you would like to go back in time and tell the people that vaccinated against polio that they were doing it wrong too? We are vaccinating to stop the pandemic. India is an example what happens without vaccines btw
    - codeflow2202 5y ago
      You must be kidding me. This is proof that you pro covid mrna therapy are just mindless news consumers. Have you ever spent a second reading articles or watching the data about what you believe? tot cases/1M pop -> usa 104525 india 22200 deaths/1M pop -> usa 1872 india 295 There is no single country in asia that did as bad as the USA in the deaths department. What's now your next extravagant excuse? That the usa has been overcounting its deaths to scare its people into covid mrna therpies?
      - adriancr 5y ago
        Oh boy ... You must not know anyone in India... I know people that have lost family members there. They were struggling to get them spots in hospitals, everything is mess of corruption, under reporting, overflowed hospitals. They're not even testing properly... See the airplane full of corona positive people with negative 'PCR' tests.
        codeflow2202 5y ago
        I do know people from India. But these are the numbers like it or not. You seem to be cherry picking only the numbers that convalidate your vision. I can't tell how much of it is undercounting in India, how much is overcounting in the USA, and how much of it is that the friends and family networks in India count hundreds of people as opposed to the westerner ones.
        adriancr 5y ago
        Numbers are usually fudged, especially in corrupt countries. It's also easy to have good numbers if you issue negative results without doing the actual tests and if you count the deaths as that of something else. Hints of the false tests are: - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/20/49-passengers-on-india-hong-kong-flight-test-positive-for-covid https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/20/49-passengers-on-in... - all of the ones that were positive had negative PCR tests... done in india Similar things were happening in Communist Romania, hence my skepticism of India's number (back then - record "harvests", everybody well fed and happy, etc, meanwhile everyone was starving as crops were sold off on external markets) Either way, best of luck, this discussion was fun for a while.
- codeflow2202 5y ago
  Also: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33688681/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33688681/
  - adriancr 5y ago
    Those are interesting, although they do not help your original statement. > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ This in essence states that given a immune population (either vaccine or natural), virus will evolve strains to escape anti-bodies... which is logical... if one such variant evolves, it will have a huge potential for multiplication. It then states that strategies for viral elimination should be diversified... I would argue vaccinating everyone will lead to viral elimination... Otherwise virus is free to mutate in non-immune people. > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33688681/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33688681/ It's a study on the viruses natural mutation potential... and it's worrying... nothing regarding vaccines and so on... it's basically a warning that it can evolve to bypass vaccines and we'll be back to square one... Again... nothing to help your argument about 'leaky' vaccines... Have you read them yourself?
    - codeflow2202 5y ago
      1) Wrong. It does help my original statement: "In this context, vaccines that do not provide sterilizing immunity (and therefore continue to permit transmission) will lead to the buildup of large standing populations of virus [47], greatly increasing the risk of immune escape." ... "Thus, our findings speak to the need for both public health and biomedical intervention strategies targeting SARS-CoV-2 to be designed to account for the risk of rapid evolutionary response to biomedical interventions." 2)Wrong again: "In the presence of mixed sera from multiple previously infected and/or vaccinated individuals these infections would create the appropriate conditions both for genetic recombination to occur, and for selection to rapidly sort multiple recombination-generated combinations of input immune evasion, cell entry and replication impacting mutations." My original point is that people that made use of covid mrna therapy can be the source of new versions of the virus (because the therapy doesn't prevent infection nor spreading of the virus). While it's true that the second study talks about mutations in both vaccinated and unvaccinated hosts, the first is clearly looking into the spike protein based therapy: "The spike protein receptor-binding domain (RBD) of SARS-CoV-2 is the molecular target for many vaccines and antibody-based prophylactics aimed at bringing COVID-19 under control. Such a narrow molecular focus raises the specter of viral immune evasion as a potential failure mode for these biomedical interventions."

adriancr 5y ago

> My point is that the myth that unvaccinated people are the part of the population creating enhanced variants is false. Incorrect. By logic, 95% (or whatever % you want) of the vaccinated population will not catch virus. As such, virus cannot evolve in them. Logical right? This is what they study says. > ... anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission ... The vaccines we have PREVENT transmission with various effectiveness. The vaccine in study did NOT. Since viruses could still infect vaccinated chicken, it evolved.

codeflow2202 5y ago
The numbers are between 95% of Pfizer at his best and 50% of Sinovac. And we are not vaccinating to avoid a pandemic, we are doing it during the pandemic making the risk of it happening much higher. But the final point I was trying to pass is that isolation of the sick will slowly push the virus to evolve in more contagious but less risky variants. Undetected infections in the vaccinated might cause strains that evade the vaccine and possibly be more dangerous (because of the lack of symptoms and isolation.)
- adriancr 5y ago
  > And we are not vaccinating to avoid a pandemic, we are doing it during the pandemic making the risk of it happening much higher. I bet you would like to go back in time and tell the people that vaccinated against polio that they were doing it wrong too? We are vaccinating to stop the pandemic. India is an example what happens without vaccines btw
  - codeflow2202 5y ago
    You must be kidding me. This is proof that you pro covid mrna therapy are just mindless news consumers. Have you ever spent a second reading articles or watching the data about what you believe? tot cases/1M pop -> usa 104525 india 22200 deaths/1M pop -> usa 1872 india 295 There is no single country in asia that did as bad as the USA in the deaths department. What's now your next extravagant excuse? That the usa has been overcounting its deaths to scare its people into covid mrna therpies?
    - adriancr 5y ago
      Oh boy ... You must not know anyone in India... I know people that have lost family members there. They were struggling to get them spots in hospitals, everything is mess of corruption, under reporting, overflowed hospitals. They're not even testing properly... See the airplane full of corona positive people with negative 'PCR' tests.
      - codeflow2202 5y ago
        I do know people from India. But these are the numbers like it or not. You seem to be cherry picking only the numbers that convalidate your vision. I can't tell how much of it is undercounting in India, how much is overcounting in the USA, and how much of it is that the friends and family networks in India count hundreds of people as opposed to the westerner ones.
        adriancr 5y ago
        Numbers are usually fudged, especially in corrupt countries. It's also easy to have good numbers if you issue negative results without doing the actual tests and if you count the deaths as that of something else. Hints of the false tests are: - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/20/49-passengers-on-india-hong-kong-flight-test-positive-for-covid https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/20/49-passengers-on-in... - all of the ones that were positive had negative PCR tests... done in india Similar things were happening in Communist Romania, hence my skepticism of India's number (back then - record "harvests", everybody well fed and happy, etc, meanwhile everyone was starving as crops were sold off on external markets) Either way, best of luck, this discussion was fun for a while.
codeflow2202 5y ago
Also: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33688681/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33688681/
- adriancr 5y ago
  Those are interesting, although they do not help your original statement. > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909660/ This in essence states that given a immune population (either vaccine or natural), virus will evolve strains to escape anti-bodies... which is logical... if one such variant evolves, it will have a huge potential for multiplication. It then states that strategies for viral elimination should be diversified... I would argue vaccinating everyone will lead to viral elimination... Otherwise virus is free to mutate in non-immune people. > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33688681/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33688681/ It's a study on the viruses natural mutation potential... and it's worrying... nothing regarding vaccines and so on... it's basically a warning that it can evolve to bypass vaccines and we'll be back to square one... Again... nothing to help your argument about 'leaky' vaccines... Have you read them yourself?
  - codeflow2202 5y ago
    1) Wrong. It does help my original statement: "In this context, vaccines that do not provide sterilizing immunity (and therefore continue to permit transmission) will lead to the buildup of large standing populations of virus [47], greatly increasing the risk of immune escape." ... "Thus, our findings speak to the need for both public health and biomedical intervention strategies targeting SARS-CoV-2 to be designed to account for the risk of rapid evolutionary response to biomedical interventions." 2)Wrong again: "In the presence of mixed sera from multiple previously infected and/or vaccinated individuals these infections would create the appropriate conditions both for genetic recombination to occur, and for selection to rapidly sort multiple recombination-generated combinations of input immune evasion, cell entry and replication impacting mutations." My original point is that people that made use of covid mrna therapy can be the source of new versions of the virus (because the therapy doesn't prevent infection nor spreading of the virus). While it's true that the second study talks about mutations in both vaccinated and unvaccinated hosts, the first is clearly looking into the spike protein based therapy: "The spike protein receptor-binding domain (RBD) of SARS-CoV-2 is the molecular target for many vaccines and antibody-based prophylactics aimed at bringing COVID-19 under control. Such a narrow molecular focus raises the specter of viral immune evasion as a potential failure mode for these biomedical interventions."