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I’m curious how they “seized” the units of cryptocurrency here. The cypherpunk trope is they either hacked their targets’ wallet with hither-untold mathematics

I’m curious how they “seized” the units of cryptocurrency here. The cypherpunk trope is they either hacked their targets’ wallet with hither-untold mathematics or they used rubber-hose cryptography… The idea of a Bitcoin nerd being forced by a court to transfer BTC via Bitcoin.exe amuses me - but that doesn’t sit right with me for some reason… Unfortunately the article is light in technical details - does anyone know more?

hrjfkfnf 5y ago
Maybe it was just sitting on an exchange.
- chokeartist 5y ago
  Yup. Most criminals aren't masterminds. Fuck - most of them don't even take basic steps to cover their tracks. That includes people with big bank rolls occasionally.
  - Breza 5y ago
    This is worth emphasizing. There's a reverse survivor bias at play. No matter what people do, some fraction will be really bad at it. Think about any workplace. In the criminal world, these are the people who get caught the fastest and result in the flashiest press releases.
dewey 5y ago
Wouldn't they just need the private key file that can be taken from the target's device?
- fidelramos 5y ago
  The private keys are usually encrypted, so the attacker would have to brute force the password, install a keylogger or use a wrench, to give some ideas.
  - toyg 5y ago
    your weekly friendly reminder that refusing to hand off passwords to authorities is a crime in the UK, punishable with up to 2 years in prison (5 if the case is marked as sensitive for "national security"). That's a pretty nice wrench.
    - gccs 5y ago
      I forgot my password.
      - NationalPark 5y ago
        Judges love arguments like this.
        Corristowolf 5y ago
        Judges do or defense attorneys do?
      - toyg 5y ago
        This has been tested in court as a defense. Try to guess what the result was.
    - hrjfkfnf 5y ago
      Not sure if that applies to a password used to secure crypto, since you can argue that the gov can see what's behind the password (ie: the crypto amount), and the purpose of the law is to reveal data hidden by the password, not to take control over it.
      - toyg 5y ago
        The "legitimate interests" clause is broad enough that it can probably be bent for that, but I reckon it would boil down to the interpretation of the "no signatures" clause: > (9) A notice under this section shall not require the disclosure of any key which- > (a) is intended to be used for the purpose only of generating electronic signatures; and > (b) has not in fact been used for any other purpose. I'm not versed in bitcoin enough to judge if wallet data protected by that password is used only for signing. This clause seems largely meant to avoid the possibility that authorities will impersonate a user after forcing him to hand over his key.
Retric 5y ago
Keyboard logging, located the key paper on paper or a pc, seized from exchange, or cracked whatever wallet software they where using seems more likely than cracking the encryption or beating it out of the suspects. Really the more time you spend around people actually using crypto coins the less secure they seem. It’s clearly possible to be secure, but many people are doing the equivalent of stuffing their mattress with cash.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  Doing the equivalent of putting your money in Fort Knox kind of kills the appeal of "money you carry in your head".
sho 5y ago
Easy. If it's a third party service like an exchange or other custody provider, get a court order, done. If it's on a personal wallet (very rare) then compel them to hand it over right now or go to prison until you do. No rubber hose required.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  That's just rubber hose with a warning and paperwork.
  - bradhe 5y ago
    It's just rubber hose with extra steps!
- playpause 5y ago
  What does ‘rubber hose’ mean here?
  - 1986 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis > In cryptography, rubber-hose cryptanalysis is a euphemism for the extraction of cryptographic secrets (e.g. the password to an encrypted file) from a person by coercion or torture[1]—such as beating that person with a rubber hose, hence the name—in contrast to a mathematical or technical cryptanalytic attack.
    - 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
      The "beating with a rubber hose" thing, in turn, comes from allegations that this method is favored by the likes of secret police, intelligence agencies, and organized crime because it leaves minimal marks on the victim compared to other forms of physical abuse.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
m3kw9 5y ago
Found the recovery phrase during a house search? Or phone search?
anm89 5y ago
All you need to do is find an exposed machine with keys. That could be via physical seizures as well. Or if it was on a KYCd exchange you just get a warrant and seize it. I'd be my bottom dollar this wasn't some sort of cryptographic attack.
mrtksn 5y ago
Bulgaria still holds the record of seized crypto, at 200K BTC which is at about 6.5 Billion $ ATM. AFAIK, when the police comes to you the computer people come alongside with the guys with the guns and immediately start messing with your equipment before packing them for evidence. How would they take your coins? If it's on an Exchange they will simply tell the exchange to hand over the dirty money. If the exchange is out of their jurisdiction, it can be harder but the cyber crime tends to be international in nature so they will probably activate some cooperation agreement and compel the exchange to hand over. If the exchange is extralegal, their best bet would be to compel you to hand it over. The first thing the computer people do would be to take a look at the running devices and extract as much information is possible. They will take alive snapshot and manually look around your folders and browser history for points of interest. Since the raid is most likely to be as a result of an investigation they would likely have an idea what to look for. If they know that you run your business with BTC they would be looking for wallets and Exchange login info. Once the accessible data is collected and disk images are taken and you are in custody they will start pushing you to give them access to the stuff that is locked down. Because you were investigated before the raid, they will have an estimate of your possessions and will know what to press for. If they nail you for some criminal activity, your best bet could be to cooperate and hand over your crypto if you don't want to be in prison for longer.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  >Bulgaria still holds the record of seized crypto, at 200K BTC which is at about 6.5 Billion $ ATM. It was sold for more like 3B euro[0] but yes still pretty good. 0. https://bitcoinist.com/bulgaria-not-bitcoin-1-6b-finance-minister/ https://bitcoinist.com/bulgaria-not-bitcoin-1-6b-finance-min...
varispeed 5y ago
In the UK you have to give up any passwords or you get 5 years or something for failing that.

hrjfkfnf 5y ago

Maybe it was just sitting on an exchange.

chokeartist 5y ago
Yup. Most criminals aren't masterminds. Fuck - most of them don't even take basic steps to cover their tracks. That includes people with big bank rolls occasionally.
- Breza 5y ago
  This is worth emphasizing. There's a reverse survivor bias at play. No matter what people do, some fraction will be really bad at it. Think about any workplace. In the criminal world, these are the people who get caught the fastest and result in the flashiest press releases.

dewey 5y ago

Wouldn't they just need the private key file that can be taken from the target's device?

fidelramos 5y ago
The private keys are usually encrypted, so the attacker would have to brute force the password, install a keylogger or use a wrench, to give some ideas.
- toyg 5y ago
  your weekly friendly reminder that refusing to hand off passwords to authorities is a crime in the UK, punishable with up to 2 years in prison (5 if the case is marked as sensitive for "national security"). That's a pretty nice wrench.
  - gccs 5y ago
    I forgot my password.
    - NationalPark 5y ago
      Judges love arguments like this.
      - Corristowolf 5y ago
        Judges do or defense attorneys do?
    - toyg 5y ago
      This has been tested in court as a defense. Try to guess what the result was.
  - hrjfkfnf 5y ago
    Not sure if that applies to a password used to secure crypto, since you can argue that the gov can see what's behind the password (ie: the crypto amount), and the purpose of the law is to reveal data hidden by the password, not to take control over it.
    - toyg 5y ago
      The "legitimate interests" clause is broad enough that it can probably be bent for that, but I reckon it would boil down to the interpretation of the "no signatures" clause: > (9) A notice under this section shall not require the disclosure of any key which- > (a) is intended to be used for the purpose only of generating electronic signatures; and > (b) has not in fact been used for any other purpose. I'm not versed in bitcoin enough to judge if wallet data protected by that password is used only for signing. This clause seems largely meant to avoid the possibility that authorities will impersonate a user after forcing him to hand over his key.

Retric 5y ago

Keyboard logging, located the key paper on paper or a pc, seized from exchange, or cracked whatever wallet software they where using seems more likely than cracking the encryption or beating it out of the suspects. Really the more time you spend around people actually using crypto coins the less secure they seem. It’s clearly possible to be secure, but many people are doing the equivalent of stuffing their mattress with cash.

alisonkisk 5y ago
Doing the equivalent of putting your money in Fort Knox kind of kills the appeal of "money you carry in your head".

sho 5y ago

Easy. If it's a third party service like an exchange or other custody provider, get a court order, done. If it's on a personal wallet (very rare) then compel them to hand it over right now or go to prison until you do. No rubber hose required.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
That's just rubber hose with a warning and paperwork.
- bradhe 5y ago
  It's just rubber hose with extra steps!
playpause 5y ago
What does ‘rubber hose’ mean here?
- 1986 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis > In cryptography, rubber-hose cryptanalysis is a euphemism for the extraction of cryptographic secrets (e.g. the password to an encrypted file) from a person by coercion or torture[1]—such as beating that person with a rubber hose, hence the name—in contrast to a mathematical or technical cryptanalytic attack.
  - 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
    The "beating with a rubber hose" thing, in turn, comes from allegations that this method is favored by the likes of secret police, intelligence agencies, and organized crime because it leaves minimal marks on the victim compared to other forms of physical abuse.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

m3kw9 5y ago

Found the recovery phrase during a house search? Or phone search?

anm89 5y ago

All you need to do is find an exposed machine with keys. That could be via physical seizures as well. Or if it was on a KYCd exchange you just get a warrant and seize it. I'd be my bottom dollar this wasn't some sort of cryptographic attack.

mrtksn 5y ago

Bulgaria still holds the record of seized crypto, at 200K BTC which is at about 6.5 Billion $ ATM. AFAIK, when the police comes to you the computer people come alongside with the guys with the guns and immediately start messing with your equipment before packing them for evidence. How would they take your coins? If it's on an Exchange they will simply tell the exchange to hand over the dirty money. If the exchange is out of their jurisdiction, it can be harder but the cyber crime tends to be international in nature so they will probably activate some cooperation agreement and compel the exchange to hand over. If the exchange is extralegal, their best bet would be to compel you to hand it over. The first thing the computer people do would be to take a look at the running devices and extract as much information is possible. They will take alive snapshot and manually look around your folders and browser history for points of interest. Since the raid is most likely to be as a result of an investigation they would likely have an idea what to look for. If they know that you run your business with BTC they would be looking for wallets and Exchange login info. Once the accessible data is collected and disk images are taken and you are in custody they will start pushing you to give them access to the stuff that is locked down. Because you were investigated before the raid, they will have an estimate of your possessions and will know what to press for. If they nail you for some criminal activity, your best bet could be to cooperate and hand over your crypto if you don't want to be in prison for longer.

Tenoke 5y ago
>Bulgaria still holds the record of seized crypto, at 200K BTC which is at about 6.5 Billion $ ATM. It was sold for more like 3B euro[0] but yes still pretty good. 0. https://bitcoinist.com/bulgaria-not-bitcoin-1-6b-finance-minister/ https://bitcoinist.com/bulgaria-not-bitcoin-1-6b-finance-min...

varispeed 5y ago

In the UK you have to give up any passwords or you get 5 years or something for failing that.