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Indeed, and as the vaccines do very little harm compared to the virus, it's definitely a good thing to get vaccinated. Especially as we are now getting the full

by Nursie 5y ago

Indeed, and as the vaccines do very little harm compared to the virus, it's definitely a good thing to get vaccinated. Especially as we are now getting the fuller picture that covid can lead to last lung and brain damage.

johnisgood 5y ago
I am not so sure. Some side-effects do take time to manifest. They just started talking about how teens get heart issues from it and so forth. We did not know this before either, nor did we know about the AstraZeneca's blood clots. Some take longer time though. We simply do not know. Anyone leaning towards "it is safe" and "it is not safe" is silly, because we just simply have no idea, you cannot claim either for certain. > Especially as we are now getting the fuller picture that covid can lead to last lung and brain damage. Yes, we are just now getting the fuller picture of COVID-19 that it can lead to this and that. The very same can happen to the vaccines, and it is actually happening to some of these vaccines.
- Nursie 5y ago
  > They just started talking about how teenage boys get enlarged heart from it and so forth Inflammation/swelling of the heart, not enlarging, very rare given the number of shots that have been rolled out, and people recover pretty quickly. Definitely a concern, not a showstopper. > We did not know this before either, nor did we know about the AstraZeneca's blood clots. Again, an incredibly low risk and less risk than harm from the virus. > we just simply have no idea. This is not really true, we have a ton of data from this vaccine and from previous ones that can inform our expectations.
  - johnisgood 5y ago
    Sorry. I mean this, and this happens to children: > A CDC committee will hear about reports of 300 cases of the heart enlargement that have happened after children were vaccinated against COVID-19. The ailment is fairly common and easily treatable. The heart inflammation happens too, though. --- > Again, an incredibly low risk and less risk than harm from the virus. But that is not the point. The point is that we did not know this would be the case. Other side-effects may come up as time goes on. > This is not really true, we have a ton of data from this vaccine and from previous ones that can inform our expectations. Again, are you talking about the mRNA vaccines? I asked the question twice with regarding to it so I am not going to do it again here.
    - Nursie 5y ago
      > Sorry. I mean this, and this happens to children: What source are you quoting there? I can find that line in an abc news feed, but no attribution and nothing much else about it. Every other source seems to be talking about inflammation of one sort or another (myocarditis or pericarditis), primarily in young men, very rarely and easily recoverable. > The point is that we did not know this would be the case We are learning all the time, that's true, but these side effects are very rare, and are becoming visible due to the large scale of the rollout. It doesn't fundamentally change the calculus, especially when we are now learning that the disease itself can cause lasting lung and brain damage. > I asked the question twice with regarding to it so I am not going to do it again here. See my other answers then.
      - johnisgood 5y ago
        > What source are you quoting there? I can find that line in an abc news feed, but no attribution and nothing much else about it. Every other source seems to be talking about inflammation of one sort or another (myocarditis or pericarditis), primarily in young men, very rarely and easily recoverable. I cannot find the source where I found it first, but that could be the case that they confused the two, I am not sure. Some are talking about hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. In any case, it can lead to chronically enlarged heart, which is dilated cardiomyopathy. Whatever. > We are learning all the time, that's true, but these side effects are very rare, and are becoming visible due to the large scale of the rollout. It doesn't fundamentally change the calculus, especially when we are now learning that the disease itself can cause lasting lung and brain damage. I suppose continuing discussing this is not very useful. If there are long-term side-effects, then we will know about them. If there are no long-term side-effects, same story.
- CogitoCogito 5y ago
  > I am not so sure. Some side-effects do take time to manifest. You're being irrational. It's true side-effects can take time to manifest. It's also true that problems due to the disease also can manifest. Taken together the fact that _something_ can possibly happen in the future gives you _no_ information today. For example, one of the side-effects of the vaccine that might manifest might be that you're _healthier_. So yeah if you take the possibility of negative side effects, but not positive side-effects, you are being irrational. Said in another way, if you are taking statements devoid of information ("something can happen with some likelihood in the future"), you are being irrational. All actual current information points overwhelmingly to the fact that the disease (even considering that not everyone will get it) is much worse than the vaccinations. That is information. That information points to one conclusion and it's not "wait forever and see what happens".
  - johnisgood 5y ago
    Personally I have been exposed to COVID-19 at the hospital on a regular basis, and I have been quarantined before with people who were positive. It does not seem to pose such a risk that you are talking about to me. I have an immunologic autoimmune disorder, too. This is my personal experience and case. Plus I do not know if I was talking against getting vaccinated, I merely said that more side-effects may come to light, which I mention because many people seem to have excluded it from the list of possibilities.
    - CogitoCogito 5y ago
      > Personally I have been exposed to COVID-19 at the hospital on a regular basis, and I have been quarantined before with people who were positive. It does not seem to pose such a risk that you are talking about to me. I have an immunologic autoimmune disorder, too. This is my personal experience and case. There's nothing scientific about any of that. You could have some natural immunity. You could also simply have been lucky. You might never be infected. You might also someday die from the disease. This is entirely anecdotal and basically useless information. > Plus I do not know if I was talking against getting vaccinated, I merely said that more side-effects may come to light, which I mention because many people seem to have excluded it from the list of possibilities. People shouldn't exclude that from the list of possibilities. But people _should not_ take it into account with their decision-making. If they are going to give weight to the future possibility of negative side-effects coming to light, they should also give weight to the future possibility that positive side-effects may come to light. Said simply, there's nothing very useful in the statement "we might know more in the future than now".
- zimpenfish 5y ago
  > how teenage boys get enlarged heart from it https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/17/1007447098/pfizer-covid-vaccine-teens-symptoms-myocarditis?t=1626171677814 https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/17/1007447... " 7 million U.S. teens and preteens (ages 12 through 17) had received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine" [...] "more than 300 cases of heart inflammation have been documented [...] mostly in teens and young adults between 12 and 39 years old" Assuming every single one of those 400 (rounding up) cases was between 12 and 17, that's 400 out of 7 million or 0.0057%. "The rate seen after these vaccines is slightly higher than the "background" rate. [...] Many of the events reported turn out to be coincidental — not caused by a vaccine." Which could well mean that only a handful of these cases are actually down to the vaccine, no? And it's not even that drastic a problem; mainly just scary - "In a case study of seven teenagers who got myocarditis following vaccination published last week in the journal Pediatrics, all seven got better after routine treatment with anti-inflammatory drugs." [edit: forgot to round one of my 300s up to 400]
  - johnisgood 5y ago
    My source of skepticism on such reports is my own Government that makes people lie about the COVID-19 cases (we have more reported than actual) because it funds our hospitals and our Government in general. We have a huge history of taking EU money in such a way, and it is pretty much incentivized. Our president told us a few months ago that COVID-19 will go away during summer (tourism), and will return in September. We are also going to produce our own vaccines, so they will be trash-talking others when it is done (again, we (or they) have done such things often).
  - native_samples 5y ago
    This is not the case. The US CDC is heavily backlogged and reports of vaccine injuries aren't being processed in a timely manner, so we don't actually know how many people are being injured by them. We only know lower bounds. If you look at VAERS then it's clear that this is by multiple orders of magnitude the most dangerous vaccine ever deployed. https://swprs.org/us-vaccine-deaths-increasing-rapidly/ https://swprs.org/us-vaccine-deaths-increasing-rapidly/ "The latest weekly US VAERS update added a shocking 2,083 post-vaccination deaths – by far the largest weekly increase to date – raising the total of reported post-vaccination deaths to 9,048. Not all of these 2,083 deaths occurred within a week, as there is a very significant reporting backlog. In total, close to 1,000 post-vaccination miscarriages, more than 3,000 heart attacks, about 7,500 disabilities, close to 20,000 severe allergic reactions, and close to 1,000 cases of heart muscle inflammation in people under 25 have already been reported to VAERS."

by Nursie 5y ago

johnisgood 5y ago

I am not so sure. Some side-effects do take time to manifest. They just started talking about how teens get heart issues from it and so forth. We did not know this before either, nor did we know about the AstraZeneca's blood clots. Some take longer time though. We simply do not know. Anyone leaning towards "it is safe" and "it is not safe" is silly, because we just simply have no idea, you cannot claim either for certain. > Especially as we are now getting the fuller picture that covid can lead to last lung and brain damage. Yes, we are just now getting the fuller picture of COVID-19 that it can lead to this and that. The very same can happen to the vaccines, and it is actually happening to some of these vaccines.

Nursie 5y ago
> They just started talking about how teenage boys get enlarged heart from it and so forth Inflammation/swelling of the heart, not enlarging, very rare given the number of shots that have been rolled out, and people recover pretty quickly. Definitely a concern, not a showstopper. > We did not know this before either, nor did we know about the AstraZeneca's blood clots. Again, an incredibly low risk and less risk than harm from the virus. > we just simply have no idea. This is not really true, we have a ton of data from this vaccine and from previous ones that can inform our expectations.
- johnisgood 5y ago
  Sorry. I mean this, and this happens to children: > A CDC committee will hear about reports of 300 cases of the heart enlargement that have happened after children were vaccinated against COVID-19. The ailment is fairly common and easily treatable. The heart inflammation happens too, though. --- > Again, an incredibly low risk and less risk than harm from the virus. But that is not the point. The point is that we did not know this would be the case. Other side-effects may come up as time goes on. > This is not really true, we have a ton of data from this vaccine and from previous ones that can inform our expectations. Again, are you talking about the mRNA vaccines? I asked the question twice with regarding to it so I am not going to do it again here.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    > Sorry. I mean this, and this happens to children: What source are you quoting there? I can find that line in an abc news feed, but no attribution and nothing much else about it. Every other source seems to be talking about inflammation of one sort or another (myocarditis or pericarditis), primarily in young men, very rarely and easily recoverable. > The point is that we did not know this would be the case We are learning all the time, that's true, but these side effects are very rare, and are becoming visible due to the large scale of the rollout. It doesn't fundamentally change the calculus, especially when we are now learning that the disease itself can cause lasting lung and brain damage. > I asked the question twice with regarding to it so I am not going to do it again here. See my other answers then.
    - johnisgood 5y ago
      > What source are you quoting there? I can find that line in an abc news feed, but no attribution and nothing much else about it. Every other source seems to be talking about inflammation of one sort or another (myocarditis or pericarditis), primarily in young men, very rarely and easily recoverable. I cannot find the source where I found it first, but that could be the case that they confused the two, I am not sure. Some are talking about hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. In any case, it can lead to chronically enlarged heart, which is dilated cardiomyopathy. Whatever. > We are learning all the time, that's true, but these side effects are very rare, and are becoming visible due to the large scale of the rollout. It doesn't fundamentally change the calculus, especially when we are now learning that the disease itself can cause lasting lung and brain damage. I suppose continuing discussing this is not very useful. If there are long-term side-effects, then we will know about them. If there are no long-term side-effects, same story.
CogitoCogito 5y ago
> I am not so sure. Some side-effects do take time to manifest. You're being irrational. It's true side-effects can take time to manifest. It's also true that problems due to the disease also can manifest. Taken together the fact that _something_ can possibly happen in the future gives you _no_ information today. For example, one of the side-effects of the vaccine that might manifest might be that you're _healthier_. So yeah if you take the possibility of negative side effects, but not positive side-effects, you are being irrational. Said in another way, if you are taking statements devoid of information ("something can happen with some likelihood in the future"), you are being irrational. All actual current information points overwhelmingly to the fact that the disease (even considering that not everyone will get it) is much worse than the vaccinations. That is information. That information points to one conclusion and it's not "wait forever and see what happens".
- johnisgood 5y ago
  Personally I have been exposed to COVID-19 at the hospital on a regular basis, and I have been quarantined before with people who were positive. It does not seem to pose such a risk that you are talking about to me. I have an immunologic autoimmune disorder, too. This is my personal experience and case. Plus I do not know if I was talking against getting vaccinated, I merely said that more side-effects may come to light, which I mention because many people seem to have excluded it from the list of possibilities.
  - CogitoCogito 5y ago
    > Personally I have been exposed to COVID-19 at the hospital on a regular basis, and I have been quarantined before with people who were positive. It does not seem to pose such a risk that you are talking about to me. I have an immunologic autoimmune disorder, too. This is my personal experience and case. There's nothing scientific about any of that. You could have some natural immunity. You could also simply have been lucky. You might never be infected. You might also someday die from the disease. This is entirely anecdotal and basically useless information. > Plus I do not know if I was talking against getting vaccinated, I merely said that more side-effects may come to light, which I mention because many people seem to have excluded it from the list of possibilities. People shouldn't exclude that from the list of possibilities. But people _should not_ take it into account with their decision-making. If they are going to give weight to the future possibility of negative side-effects coming to light, they should also give weight to the future possibility that positive side-effects may come to light. Said simply, there's nothing very useful in the statement "we might know more in the future than now".
zimpenfish 5y ago
> how teenage boys get enlarged heart from it https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/17/1007447098/pfizer-covid-vaccine-teens-symptoms-myocarditis?t=1626171677814 https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/17/1007447... " 7 million U.S. teens and preteens (ages 12 through 17) had received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine" [...] "more than 300 cases of heart inflammation have been documented [...] mostly in teens and young adults between 12 and 39 years old" Assuming every single one of those 400 (rounding up) cases was between 12 and 17, that's 400 out of 7 million or 0.0057%. "The rate seen after these vaccines is slightly higher than the "background" rate. [...] Many of the events reported turn out to be coincidental — not caused by a vaccine." Which could well mean that only a handful of these cases are actually down to the vaccine, no? And it's not even that drastic a problem; mainly just scary - "In a case study of seven teenagers who got myocarditis following vaccination published last week in the journal Pediatrics, all seven got better after routine treatment with anti-inflammatory drugs." [edit: forgot to round one of my 300s up to 400]
- johnisgood 5y ago
  My source of skepticism on such reports is my own Government that makes people lie about the COVID-19 cases (we have more reported than actual) because it funds our hospitals and our Government in general. We have a huge history of taking EU money in such a way, and it is pretty much incentivized. Our president told us a few months ago that COVID-19 will go away during summer (tourism), and will return in September. We are also going to produce our own vaccines, so they will be trash-talking others when it is done (again, we (or they) have done such things often).
- native_samples 5y ago
  This is not the case. The US CDC is heavily backlogged and reports of vaccine injuries aren't being processed in a timely manner, so we don't actually know how many people are being injured by them. We only know lower bounds. If you look at VAERS then it's clear that this is by multiple orders of magnitude the most dangerous vaccine ever deployed. https://swprs.org/us-vaccine-deaths-increasing-rapidly/ https://swprs.org/us-vaccine-deaths-increasing-rapidly/ "The latest weekly US VAERS update added a shocking 2,083 post-vaccination deaths – by far the largest weekly increase to date – raising the total of reported post-vaccination deaths to 9,048. Not all of these 2,083 deaths occurred within a week, as there is a very significant reporting backlog. In total, close to 1,000 post-vaccination miscarriages, more than 3,000 heart attacks, about 7,500 disabilities, close to 20,000 severe allergic reactions, and close to 1,000 cases of heart muscle inflammation in people under 25 have already been reported to VAERS."