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Elastic are a $13 billion company. They get little sympathy from me. They built that value off the back of many other open source products, and with help from

Elastic are a $13 billion company. They get little sympathy from me. They built that value off the back of many other open source products, and with help from the community - all under licenses like Apache 2.0 and MIT. And now, after building all that value by selling Enterprise and SaaS versions of the software, they decided to specifically target their competitor who was doing the exact same thing. Without Lucene, there would have been no ElasticSearch. Why does ElasticSearch get to take all the hard work done by Lucene contributors and sell it as part of their own product? This does not sound fair... in the terms you put it. If this hurts Elastic, they did it to themselves. They don't deserve your support.

polskibus 5y ago
Just remember that their valuation does not represent their free cash flow, whether they are profitable at all, etc. It could be that open sourcing something kills your profitability in the back, while boosting revenue.
- zokier 5y ago
  Elastic is a public company, the financial information is readily available, so no need to speculate. FY2020 revenue was 430 million, and they spent 220 million on sales and marketing and 165 million on R&D, the total being net loss of 167 million.
  - polskibus 5y ago
    In this case, it's understandable that they need to improve their profitability, and laudable that they are not doing so by closed sourcing the product.
    - thefurrysquid 5y ago
      It is not an open source product anymore. Source is available, but this is not the same thing. This is what OSI had to say about it: https://opensource.org/node/1099 https://opensource.org/node/1099 "The Elastic projects were offered under the Apache license. Outside contributors donated time and energy with the understanding that their work was going towards the greater good, the public software commons. Now, instead, their contributions are embedded in a proprietary product. If they want to enjoy the fruits of their own and their co-contributors’ labor, they have to agree to a proprietary license or fork." "Elastic’s current business model is inconsistent with what open source licenses are designed to do. Its current business desires are what proprietary licenses (which includes source available) are designed for."
nprateem 5y ago
Because they significantly innovated beyond the core lucene library to solve a major pain of their customers around scaling, analytics, etc., providing customers with extra value. Amazon appear to be only making minor tweaks to the software and commoditising its running, capitalising on their entrenched audience. It's easy to see why Elastic are annoyed.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  > Because they significantly innovated beyond the core lucene library to solve a major pain of their customers around scaling, analytics, etc., providing customers with extra value. And they've decided that this extra value could be given away for $0, or they wouldn't have released this under an open source license. > Amazon appear to be only making minor tweaks to the software and commoditising its running They may be "minor tweaks" but apparently they have a lot of value for some people. I don't particularly care for them and run my own ES cluster. Just as enabling TLS and basic auth are "minor tweaks", but this is what Elastic charges for. But if there are a non-negligible number of companies using the managed ES service, it means that it has at least some value and that it's good enough compared to the Elastic Cloud offering (I personally don't know how they compare, just that I find both expensive). This value has been offered by AWS before Elastic's offering. Only now that "not enough people" want to buy the managed Elastic Cloud is it an issue. To me, these are separate products. Sure, there would be no managed AWS ES without Elastic's product. But Elastic's cloud offering is something that came afterwards, and to me only this particular offering (the managed ES) competes with AWS's offering. Now, it looks like Elastic will get the worst of both worlds. I only use ES for the logs and needed the authentication. I couldn't really justify the platinum tier just to get SSO, so we made do with basic LDAP. But now that Open Search has those features for free? I don't really have a good reason anymore to stick with Elastic's onerous plan. And no, I've never once called them for the "support" part of the offering, so I'm not really losing anything there.
  - nprateem 5y ago
    Yeah AWS ES totally has value. I'm aware ES decided to go with an open licence but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that they did that to try to gain traction and cross-sell other services, such as managed hosting. If you have a friend round to stay for the weekend and say "stay as long as you want", wouldn't you be annoyed if they were still there 10 years later? There is such a thing as the spirit vs the letter of the law.
alphadenied 5y ago
My two cents.... trying to profit via the business of artificial scarcity on an open source project that's going to end up a commoditization anyway, is kinda crappy. If they offered support or implementations or a specific customization for profit, I get it. That way the people doing work get rewarded and people don't end up paying for access to a feature because it's a carrot being used to get money.
sdht0 5y ago
> They built that value off the back of many other open source products Would you opinion change if everything in Elasticsearch was in-house? I think there is a broader question about spirit of open source licensing here. If I'm building a new DB from scratch, should I choose a true open source license and risk giving up competitive advantage in my ability to monetize it, over Amazon-like companies who have the benefit of brand and scale? Or is it okay to just make the code source-available, which is still better than closed-source? I like the balanced approach some companies are adopting: make the code source-available initially and automatically transition to a open source license after N years.

polskibus 5y ago

Just remember that their valuation does not represent their free cash flow, whether they are profitable at all, etc. It could be that open sourcing something kills your profitability in the back, while boosting revenue.

zokier 5y ago
Elastic is a public company, the financial information is readily available, so no need to speculate. FY2020 revenue was 430 million, and they spent 220 million on sales and marketing and 165 million on R&D, the total being net loss of 167 million.
- polskibus 5y ago
  In this case, it's understandable that they need to improve their profitability, and laudable that they are not doing so by closed sourcing the product.
  - thefurrysquid 5y ago
    It is not an open source product anymore. Source is available, but this is not the same thing. This is what OSI had to say about it: https://opensource.org/node/1099 https://opensource.org/node/1099 "The Elastic projects were offered under the Apache license. Outside contributors donated time and energy with the understanding that their work was going towards the greater good, the public software commons. Now, instead, their contributions are embedded in a proprietary product. If they want to enjoy the fruits of their own and their co-contributors’ labor, they have to agree to a proprietary license or fork." "Elastic’s current business model is inconsistent with what open source licenses are designed to do. Its current business desires are what proprietary licenses (which includes source available) are designed for."

nprateem 5y ago

Because they significantly innovated beyond the core lucene library to solve a major pain of their customers around scaling, analytics, etc., providing customers with extra value. Amazon appear to be only making minor tweaks to the software and commoditising its running, capitalising on their entrenched audience. It's easy to see why Elastic are annoyed.

vladvasiliu 5y ago
> Because they significantly innovated beyond the core lucene library to solve a major pain of their customers around scaling, analytics, etc., providing customers with extra value. And they've decided that this extra value could be given away for $0, or they wouldn't have released this under an open source license. > Amazon appear to be only making minor tweaks to the software and commoditising its running They may be "minor tweaks" but apparently they have a lot of value for some people. I don't particularly care for them and run my own ES cluster. Just as enabling TLS and basic auth are "minor tweaks", but this is what Elastic charges for. But if there are a non-negligible number of companies using the managed ES service, it means that it has at least some value and that it's good enough compared to the Elastic Cloud offering (I personally don't know how they compare, just that I find both expensive). This value has been offered by AWS before Elastic's offering. Only now that "not enough people" want to buy the managed Elastic Cloud is it an issue. To me, these are separate products. Sure, there would be no managed AWS ES without Elastic's product. But Elastic's cloud offering is something that came afterwards, and to me only this particular offering (the managed ES) competes with AWS's offering. Now, it looks like Elastic will get the worst of both worlds. I only use ES for the logs and needed the authentication. I couldn't really justify the platinum tier just to get SSO, so we made do with basic LDAP. But now that Open Search has those features for free? I don't really have a good reason anymore to stick with Elastic's onerous plan. And no, I've never once called them for the "support" part of the offering, so I'm not really losing anything there.
- nprateem 5y ago
  Yeah AWS ES totally has value. I'm aware ES decided to go with an open licence but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that they did that to try to gain traction and cross-sell other services, such as managed hosting. If you have a friend round to stay for the weekend and say "stay as long as you want", wouldn't you be annoyed if they were still there 10 years later? There is such a thing as the spirit vs the letter of the law.

alphadenied 5y ago

My two cents.... trying to profit via the business of artificial scarcity on an open source project that's going to end up a commoditization anyway, is kinda crappy. If they offered support or implementations or a specific customization for profit, I get it. That way the people doing work get rewarded and people don't end up paying for access to a feature because it's a carrot being used to get money.

sdht0 5y ago

> They built that value off the back of many other open source products Would you opinion change if everything in Elasticsearch was in-house? I think there is a broader question about spirit of open source licensing here. If I'm building a new DB from scratch, should I choose a true open source license and risk giving up competitive advantage in my ability to monetize it, over Amazon-like companies who have the benefit of brand and scale? Or is it okay to just make the code source-available, which is still better than closed-source? I like the balanced approach some companies are adopting: make the code source-available initially and automatically transition to a open source license after N years.