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You would think we could just celebrate that they're smart, but apparently we need to celebrate that they're smart and that they're girls. I think that sends a

by funkah 15y ago

You would think we could just celebrate that they're smart, but apparently we need to celebrate that they're smart and that they're girls. I think that sends a bad message, that girls are hothouse flowers or somehow need more encouragement for them to do well.

raganwald 15y ago
Wait, what!? Let's say, for example, that we have a country like Fiji where XC skiing is rare. But a university student from Fiji he takes up the sport. He ends up representing his country in the 1988 Olympics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympic... Now, if he were to go on and actually win an Olympic medal, is it wrong of us to say, "Wow, that's amazing considering he's from a country that traditionally doesn't do very well in Winter sports?" Are we treating him like a hot house flower to celebrate the fact that he skiis and he's from Fiji? Do we think Fijians have some sort of character defect if they need to be encouraged to try this sport that for decades has been dominated by people who aren't very much like them at all?
- Helianthus 15y ago
  you're saying that girls don't 'come from a place' where they can develop math and science skills. it's not wrong to celebrate overcoming hardship. it's wrong to assume that the hardship of being a woman has been overcome as if there's something implicitly more difficult for _every woman_.
  - raganwald 15y ago
    I said nothing of the sort. I said that Rusiate Rogoyawa came from a place where people like him hadn't won Olympic medals. I said nothing about whether Fijians have hardships to overcome or whether they simply don't care about XC skiing. It is enough to note that there have been no medals for Fiji, and a medal would be unusual. My claim is that this is similar to the case of the girls. We have plenty of uncontested evidence that women can be fine scientists. What is missing is a track record of girls winning science fairs, much less sweeping them.
- funkah 15y ago
  Do you really think that Fijian skiiers are analogous to women scientists?! That is messed up. I don't think it's amazing for a woman or a girl to be accomplished in math/science, that's my point. It happens all the time.
  - raganwald 15y ago
    I think it is unusual for girls to dominate a science competition of this sort, and I believe that the statistics back this up. I think that is entirely analogous to the hypothetical case of a Fijian actually winning an Olympic medal in cross-country skiing. I know of no reason why a Fijian should or shouldn't be competitive in XC skiing, and I don't care to speculate as to whether there is some intrinsic genetic, cultural, or just plain lack of convenient access to snow reason why Fijians haven't won any medals yet, but if it were to happen, it would be unusual. It might not be amazing that a Fijian should be an accomplished skiier, but it would be amazing to win a medal when there has been a long history of them not winning medals. Back to the girls. There have been many great woman scientists. True. Have there been as many girls winning science fair competitions? How many times have the top three places all been male? How many times have the top three places all been female? I think it's safe to be amazed or delighted at this result without saying anything about whether there are or have been woman scientists, or whether women ought to be or are accomplished scientists. It is enough for me that this result is amazing.

by funkah 15y ago

raganwald 15y ago

Wait, what!? Let's say, for example, that we have a country like Fiji where XC skiing is rare. But a university student from Fiji he takes up the sport. He ends up representing his country in the 1988 Olympics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympic... Now, if he were to go on and actually win an Olympic medal, is it wrong of us to say, "Wow, that's amazing considering he's from a country that traditionally doesn't do very well in Winter sports?" Are we treating him like a hot house flower to celebrate the fact that he skiis and he's from Fiji? Do we think Fijians have some sort of character defect if they need to be encouraged to try this sport that for decades has been dominated by people who aren't very much like them at all?

Helianthus 15y ago
you're saying that girls don't 'come from a place' where they can develop math and science skills. it's not wrong to celebrate overcoming hardship. it's wrong to assume that the hardship of being a woman has been overcome as if there's something implicitly more difficult for _every woman_.
- raganwald 15y ago
  I said nothing of the sort. I said that Rusiate Rogoyawa came from a place where people like him hadn't won Olympic medals. I said nothing about whether Fijians have hardships to overcome or whether they simply don't care about XC skiing. It is enough to note that there have been no medals for Fiji, and a medal would be unusual. My claim is that this is similar to the case of the girls. We have plenty of uncontested evidence that women can be fine scientists. What is missing is a track record of girls winning science fairs, much less sweeping them.
funkah 15y ago
Do you really think that Fijian skiiers are analogous to women scientists?! That is messed up. I don't think it's amazing for a woman or a girl to be accomplished in math/science, that's my point. It happens all the time.
- raganwald 15y ago
  I think it is unusual for girls to dominate a science competition of this sort, and I believe that the statistics back this up. I think that is entirely analogous to the hypothetical case of a Fijian actually winning an Olympic medal in cross-country skiing. I know of no reason why a Fijian should or shouldn't be competitive in XC skiing, and I don't care to speculate as to whether there is some intrinsic genetic, cultural, or just plain lack of convenient access to snow reason why Fijians haven't won any medals yet, but if it were to happen, it would be unusual. It might not be amazing that a Fijian should be an accomplished skiier, but it would be amazing to win a medal when there has been a long history of them not winning medals. Back to the girls. There have been many great woman scientists. True. Have there been as many girls winning science fair competitions? How many times have the top three places all been male? How many times have the top three places all been female? I think it's safe to be amazed or delighted at this result without saying anything about whether there are or have been woman scientists, or whether women ought to be or are accomplished scientists. It is enough for me that this result is amazing.