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It's a stretch to describe road debris hitting the undercarriage of a car a "collision". You should expect a vehicle to be engineered so that small objects hitt

It's a stretch to describe road debris hitting the undercarriage of a car a "collision". You should expect a vehicle to be engineered so that small objects hitting the undercarriage don't cause significant damage. Making subassemblies replaceable in part rather than in whole is definitely a bonus. When they're only replaceable in whole, I do consider it deficient engineering, especially if a small change would make it possible. An example from motorbikes: I would never buy a Triumph Tiger 800 because the rear subframe is welded to the rest of the frame. Any drop which causes a bend in the rear subframe - easily enough done since the passenger footpegs and exhaust are attached to it - would require replacing the whole frame to fix. In most high performance bikes, the rear subframe is bolted on.

kube-system 5y ago
These terms are clearly defined in auto policies and are strictly regulated. I just read mine, and the things that are covered under my comprehensive policy are in a plain-english list that, clear as day, wouldn't cover this. Although if we're just talking plain-english and not legalese, I'd say that your assertion is a stretch: that colliding with debris is not a "collision". And yes, Tesla repairability is poor. That's kind of what you can expect to get when you prioritize time-to-market above anything else. I like to buy old motorcycles that don't have any parts availability and everything has to be custom done... but I wouldn't do that with my daily driver.
- barrkel 5y ago
  As pointed out in another comment, I think this is a case of US / UK difference in insurance jargon. Debris damaging the undercarriage would not be covered by the closest UK equivalent of collision insurance (CDW on rentals), as I understand it. I also think insurance is a bit of a red herring here. You wouldn't claim on insurance for a flat tyre either; some things are just bad luck. It's the quality of engineering - what I do think is on topic - which controls the risk.
  - anfilt 5y ago
    Except, in most vehicles something like this would not result in 16k quote to repair so the insurance not covering it is not the end of the world. This I would say is more of design oversight on tesla’s part. At the very least there should have been a shroud or cover over more vulnerable parts.
tylersmith 5y ago
> It's a stretch to describe road debris hitting the undercarriage of a car a "collision". The insurance that covers such an event is literally called collison insurance.
- awsthro00945 5y ago
  I have no clue why you're being downvoted (and I'm being downvoted now too, lol). If you hit a rock in the road, or a pothole, or a tree, it is covered under collision insurance. For posterity: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/collision-insurance.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/collision-insurance.asp > ... it will cover damage from potholes, and accidents involving an inanimate object.
  - barrkel 5y ago
    Perhaps part of the confusion here is UK vs US? A collision in the UK would normally involve a third party. In the rental space, collision damage waivers - CDWs - explicitly don't cover undercarriage, wheels, windshields and so on, the kind of damage we're talking about here. https://www.aviva.co.uk/insurance/motor/car-insurance/what-are-collision-damage-waivers/ https://www.aviva.co.uk/insurance/motor/car-insurance/what-a...
    - kube-system 5y ago
      Ah yeah. In the US, collision also typically applies to single vehicle collisions. (With the frequent exception of animal collision)
    - awsthro00945 5y ago
      At the US rental companies I've used, CDWs specifically do cover those things, and in fact cover pretty much everything related to any damage of the vehicle (with caveats, like you were using the vehicle for something illegal). I guess the US/UK difference is good to keep in mind next time I head to the UK. https://www.avis.com/en/help/usa-faqs/cdw-insurance https://www.avis.com/en/help/usa-faqs/cdw-insurance https://www.avis.com/en/products-and-services/protections/loss-damage-waiver https://www.avis.com/en/products-and-services/protections/lo...
vel0city 5y ago
From Merriam-Webster: Definition of collide intransitive verb 1 : to come together with solid or direct impact https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collide https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collide Its a stretch to describe road debris coming together with solid impact to the undercarriage a collision?
- anfilt 5y ago
  Not really the debris is colliding with the car. Even a pebble hitting a wind shield can hit with quite a bit of force and is also a collision. Let alone larger debris on the road. Also both objects dont need to be moving for instance you can collide into a tree or guard rail. Now insurance certainly can exclude things that are collisions. A common on in the US are animal collisions like deer ect...
- otterley 5y ago
  Important words in contracts are usually defined in the contract itself. "Collision" is almost certainly defined in any automobile insurance contract you purchase. If you can read code, you can (and should!) read the contracts you sign, especially contracts that could pay you money. Relying on the dictionary alone can mislead you. Here's the pertinent definition from my policy (USAA specifically): "Collision" means the impact with an object and includes upset of a vehicle. Loss caused by the following is covered under Comprehensive Coverage and is not considered collision: fire; missiles or falling objects; hail, water or flood; malicious mischief or vandalism; theft or larceny; riot or civil commotion; explosion orearthquake; contact with bird or animal; windstorm; or breakage of window glass
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Whenever I see contract language like > bird or animal I want to know the background behind why some lawyer found that necessary. :)
    - otterley 5y ago
      My guess is that it happens so frequently that it wouldn't be profitable to cover damages caused by hitting animals.
mulmen 5y ago
That's a pretty typical construction for a cradle tube frame. A Triumph Tiger 800 is not a high performance bike. Cradle frames are cheap, the bikes that have bolted on subframes typically have backbone frames and use the engines as stressed members. Also that subframe attachment is an adjustment point for fine-tuning rider position.

kube-system 5y ago

These terms are clearly defined in auto policies and are strictly regulated. I just read mine, and the things that are covered under my comprehensive policy are in a plain-english list that, clear as day, wouldn't cover this. Although if we're just talking plain-english and not legalese, I'd say that your assertion is a stretch: that colliding with debris is not a "collision". And yes, Tesla repairability is poor. That's kind of what you can expect to get when you prioritize time-to-market above anything else. I like to buy old motorcycles that don't have any parts availability and everything has to be custom done... but I wouldn't do that with my daily driver.

barrkel 5y ago
As pointed out in another comment, I think this is a case of US / UK difference in insurance jargon. Debris damaging the undercarriage would not be covered by the closest UK equivalent of collision insurance (CDW on rentals), as I understand it. I also think insurance is a bit of a red herring here. You wouldn't claim on insurance for a flat tyre either; some things are just bad luck. It's the quality of engineering - what I do think is on topic - which controls the risk.
- anfilt 5y ago
  Except, in most vehicles something like this would not result in 16k quote to repair so the insurance not covering it is not the end of the world. This I would say is more of design oversight on tesla’s part. At the very least there should have been a shroud or cover over more vulnerable parts.

tylersmith 5y ago

> It's a stretch to describe road debris hitting the undercarriage of a car a "collision". The insurance that covers such an event is literally called collison insurance.

awsthro00945 5y ago
I have no clue why you're being downvoted (and I'm being downvoted now too, lol). If you hit a rock in the road, or a pothole, or a tree, it is covered under collision insurance. For posterity: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/collision-insurance.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/collision-insurance.asp > ... it will cover damage from potholes, and accidents involving an inanimate object.
- barrkel 5y ago
  Perhaps part of the confusion here is UK vs US? A collision in the UK would normally involve a third party. In the rental space, collision damage waivers - CDWs - explicitly don't cover undercarriage, wheels, windshields and so on, the kind of damage we're talking about here. https://www.aviva.co.uk/insurance/motor/car-insurance/what-are-collision-damage-waivers/ https://www.aviva.co.uk/insurance/motor/car-insurance/what-a...
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Ah yeah. In the US, collision also typically applies to single vehicle collisions. (With the frequent exception of animal collision)
  - awsthro00945 5y ago
    At the US rental companies I've used, CDWs specifically do cover those things, and in fact cover pretty much everything related to any damage of the vehicle (with caveats, like you were using the vehicle for something illegal). I guess the US/UK difference is good to keep in mind next time I head to the UK. https://www.avis.com/en/help/usa-faqs/cdw-insurance https://www.avis.com/en/help/usa-faqs/cdw-insurance https://www.avis.com/en/products-and-services/protections/loss-damage-waiver https://www.avis.com/en/products-and-services/protections/lo...

vel0city 5y ago

From Merriam-Webster: Definition of collide intransitive verb 1 : to come together with solid or direct impact https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collide https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collide Its a stretch to describe road debris coming together with solid impact to the undercarriage a collision?

anfilt 5y ago
Not really the debris is colliding with the car. Even a pebble hitting a wind shield can hit with quite a bit of force and is also a collision. Let alone larger debris on the road. Also both objects dont need to be moving for instance you can collide into a tree or guard rail. Now insurance certainly can exclude things that are collisions. A common on in the US are animal collisions like deer ect...
otterley 5y ago
Important words in contracts are usually defined in the contract itself. "Collision" is almost certainly defined in any automobile insurance contract you purchase. If you can read code, you can (and should!) read the contracts you sign, especially contracts that could pay you money. Relying on the dictionary alone can mislead you. Here's the pertinent definition from my policy (USAA specifically): "Collision" means the impact with an object and includes upset of a vehicle. Loss caused by the following is covered under Comprehensive Coverage and is not considered collision: fire; missiles or falling objects; hail, water or flood; malicious mischief or vandalism; theft or larceny; riot or civil commotion; explosion orearthquake; contact with bird or animal; windstorm; or breakage of window glass
- kube-system 5y ago
  Whenever I see contract language like > bird or animal I want to know the background behind why some lawyer found that necessary. :)
  - otterley 5y ago
    My guess is that it happens so frequently that it wouldn't be profitable to cover damages caused by hitting animals.

mulmen 5y ago

That's a pretty typical construction for a cradle tube frame. A Triumph Tiger 800 is not a high performance bike. Cradle frames are cheap, the bikes that have bolted on subframes typically have backbone frames and use the engines as stressed members. Also that subframe attachment is an adjustment point for fine-tuning rider position.