4 ms·

Because I might be turned down for a job or apartment or loan because of my political views ? And because it's frankly nobody else's business how I vote ?

sp332 15y ago
Voting is an inherently public, civic act. It's not a personal matter. Your vote has a direct effect on lots of other people. Why shouldn't you be accountable for that?
- pnathan 15y ago
  You should review the history behind secret voting for a list of reasons why secret votes are considered a good thing.
  - sp332 15y ago
    I've looked around Wikipedia, but the only reason I can find is voter intimidation. Every presidential election in the US until Grover Cleveland in 1884 was by open ballot, so it's not like an open-ballot system is untenable.
    - saraid216 15y ago
      I'd consider voter intimidation a sufficient reason. Why is it so easily dismissed, in your opinion?
    - CodeMage 15y ago
      Voting for a representative and voting directly on an issue are two very different things. Sure, the idea behind them is the same, but the level of transparency of your stance is drastically higher in the latter case. In other words, you can always say "Well, yeah, I know John Doe is 'pro-choice', but I didn't vote for him because of that. I voted for him because of his ideas for lowering the unemployment." On the other hand, if you publicly voted "pro-choice" instead of "pro-life", there's no way you can deny it. So it comes down to plausible deniability. As to why you would want to deny your own choice in the first place, several other commenters have already explained that.
    - jsmcgd 15y ago
      Buying and selling votes is common practice in many parts of the globe. The less secret a vote is the easier it is to trade.
- slowpoke 15y ago
  The problem is that, as others have mentioned, from openness results social pressure, and social pressure can severely affect your decisions. On the other hand, openness of course leads to transparency, and transparency prevents corruption and lobbying (to a considerable degree, at least). Interestingly though, this is also due to social pressure. My vision would be a system that combines techniques such as the ones deployed in BitCoin and NameCoin (Public Keys) to ensure unique identities but still preserve anonymity. In a such a system, everyone could freely speak their mind anonymously, yet still be accountable (in this case meaning he or she can be identified as some individual, but not as a specific person). This would also lead to reducing debates to facts and arguments, by effectively completely depersonalizing it. It would no longer be about people, it would be about problems, ideas and solutions. I don't really know if this technically feasible (I'm not even sure if it makes sense to anyone but me), but I think it would solve many of the problems with real democracy.
  - beatpanda 15y ago
    >transparency prevents corruption and lobbying This isn't really true. I'm interning at the Sunlight Foundation this Summer, and some of our free tools are used by lobbyists with less money to spend than some larger interests here in D.C. Transparency can actually lead to more, but more varied, lobbying. The really remarkable thing about transparency is just how much corruption is completely knowable and out in the open, yet totally ignored.
- zeemonkee 15y ago
  OK. So suppose your voting preferences are available online. Your boss happens to be a friend of the candidate, or a member of a political party. You are told to vote a certain way or lose your job. You are turned down for a bank loan because your bank manager doesn't like liberals. You are refused an apartment because the people on your street don't like conservatives. You fail at an interview because the interviewer only likes people who vote the way she does. This is so bloody obvious it shouldn't need to be spelled out. Secret ballots are secret so that people can exercise their democratic rights without fear of discrimination, recrimination or intimidation.
  - sp332 15y ago
    WTF? Maybe the interviewer only hires tall people, or the people on your street don't like your race, or you are turned down for a bank loan because you're a woman. There are lots of stupid prejudices in the world, but people don't go around hiding who they are all the time. It's just not worth it.
    - zeemonkee 15y ago
      You really don't want to let go of this idiocy, do you ? The examples I gave are ways in which the democratic process can be subverted. It's more than just whether you are black or gay. It's the very basis by which a citizen can freely exercise their choice. If that choice can be interfered with then the whole principle of one person - one vote goes out the window. If I know my vote will impact my personal future - that I, or my family could be attacked or threatened, or my career ruined, because of the way I vote - even if that is just a potential threat then I will not vote at all, or if forced to will vote safely with the herd.
      - sp332 15y ago
        The examples I gave are ways in which the democratic process can be subverted. OK, I finally see what your point is. I just disagree with it.
    - beatpanda 15y ago

sp332 15y ago

Voting is an inherently public, civic act. It's not a personal matter. Your vote has a direct effect on lots of other people. Why shouldn't you be accountable for that?

pnathan 15y ago
You should review the history behind secret voting for a list of reasons why secret votes are considered a good thing.
- sp332 15y ago
  I've looked around Wikipedia, but the only reason I can find is voter intimidation. Every presidential election in the US until Grover Cleveland in 1884 was by open ballot, so it's not like an open-ballot system is untenable.
  - saraid216 15y ago
    I'd consider voter intimidation a sufficient reason. Why is it so easily dismissed, in your opinion?
  - CodeMage 15y ago
    Voting for a representative and voting directly on an issue are two very different things. Sure, the idea behind them is the same, but the level of transparency of your stance is drastically higher in the latter case. In other words, you can always say "Well, yeah, I know John Doe is 'pro-choice', but I didn't vote for him because of that. I voted for him because of his ideas for lowering the unemployment." On the other hand, if you publicly voted "pro-choice" instead of "pro-life", there's no way you can deny it. So it comes down to plausible deniability. As to why you would want to deny your own choice in the first place, several other commenters have already explained that.
  - jsmcgd 15y ago
    Buying and selling votes is common practice in many parts of the globe. The less secret a vote is the easier it is to trade.
slowpoke 15y ago
The problem is that, as others have mentioned, from openness results social pressure, and social pressure can severely affect your decisions. On the other hand, openness of course leads to transparency, and transparency prevents corruption and lobbying (to a considerable degree, at least). Interestingly though, this is also due to social pressure. My vision would be a system that combines techniques such as the ones deployed in BitCoin and NameCoin (Public Keys) to ensure unique identities but still preserve anonymity. In a such a system, everyone could freely speak their mind anonymously, yet still be accountable (in this case meaning he or she can be identified as some individual, but not as a specific person). This would also lead to reducing debates to facts and arguments, by effectively completely depersonalizing it. It would no longer be about people, it would be about problems, ideas and solutions. I don't really know if this technically feasible (I'm not even sure if it makes sense to anyone but me), but I think it would solve many of the problems with real democracy.
- beatpanda 15y ago
  >transparency prevents corruption and lobbying This isn't really true. I'm interning at the Sunlight Foundation this Summer, and some of our free tools are used by lobbyists with less money to spend than some larger interests here in D.C. Transparency can actually lead to more, but more varied, lobbying. The really remarkable thing about transparency is just how much corruption is completely knowable and out in the open, yet totally ignored.
zeemonkee 15y ago
OK. So suppose your voting preferences are available online. Your boss happens to be a friend of the candidate, or a member of a political party. You are told to vote a certain way or lose your job. You are turned down for a bank loan because your bank manager doesn't like liberals. You are refused an apartment because the people on your street don't like conservatives. You fail at an interview because the interviewer only likes people who vote the way she does. This is so bloody obvious it shouldn't need to be spelled out. Secret ballots are secret so that people can exercise their democratic rights without fear of discrimination, recrimination or intimidation.
- sp332 15y ago
  WTF? Maybe the interviewer only hires tall people, or the people on your street don't like your race, or you are turned down for a bank loan because you're a woman. There are lots of stupid prejudices in the world, but people don't go around hiding who they are all the time. It's just not worth it.
  - zeemonkee 15y ago
    You really don't want to let go of this idiocy, do you ? The examples I gave are ways in which the democratic process can be subverted. It's more than just whether you are black or gay. It's the very basis by which a citizen can freely exercise their choice. If that choice can be interfered with then the whole principle of one person - one vote goes out the window. If I know my vote will impact my personal future - that I, or my family could be attacked or threatened, or my career ruined, because of the way I vote - even if that is just a potential threat then I will not vote at all, or if forced to will vote safely with the herd.
    - sp332 15y ago
      The examples I gave are ways in which the democratic process can be subverted. OK, I finally see what your point is. I just disagree with it.
  - beatpanda 15y ago