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"Free Democracies" are passing the weirdest restrictions. It's mind boggling just how much power our governments are allowed to wield. I'm not even a libertaria

"Free Democracies" are passing the weirdest restrictions. It's mind boggling just how much power our governments are allowed to wield. I'm not even a libertarian and I think this is government overreach. So you're going to allow people to work out in gyms, but playing music that's too fast is somehow too dangerous to allow? Come on. If it was a real problem you'd just close the gyms again.

nszceta 5y ago
A sizable portion of South Koreans still believe in fan death.
- effingwewt 5y ago
  I had to look this up as I'd never heard of it before. I don't even know what this makes me more of- sad, or impressed they pulled this off.
015a 5y ago
This is what we call "compromise"; when you've got a reasonable position on one side, a reasonable position on the other, and the solution is to meet in the middle and produce policy which is totally unreasonable and makes no one happy.
- thrower123 5y ago
  Or, you have a reasonable policy on one side, and a batshit crazy policy on the other, so the "compromise" is a half-way batshit crazy policy.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  This reminds me of how grocery stores were allowed to remain open, but the greeting card aisle was taped off because they didn't want people going to birthday parties. It felt like insanity, what if I wanted to send a card in-lieu of going to a gathering? Didn't matter. They weren't going to sell me one.
  - beamatronic 5y ago
    Surely you are joking about the taped-off greeting cards?
    - BitwiseFool 5y ago
      I don't have a photo of my own experience, but here's a news article with one: https://www.cpr.org/2020/04/06/in-summit-county-essential-businesses-cant-sell-you-non-essential-stuff/ https://www.cpr.org/2020/04/06/in-summit-county-essential-bu...
      - phillc73 5y ago
        My crazy experience in Austria was that one was unable to buy plastic forks. Packets of plastic knives were still on shelves, but the forks had been removed. I thought it was random luck, but three large supermarkets were the same. I guess they really didn’t want people eating at those forbidden gatherings.
        hnbad 5y ago
        Seems more likely that they were just in short supply. Plastic forks always sell better than other plastic cutlery. I don't think there's much panic buying of plastic forks but it's the kind of item they probably weren't in a hurry to restock when there's a massive run on toilet paper and pasta.
      - ksaj 5y ago
        In Toronto, the Dollarama until just a few days ago, had many of their shelves blocked off. You could get food, candy, pet supplies, batteries but you couldn't get books, toys, clothing, headphones... I thought it was all pretty random and bizarre.
    - rsynnott 5y ago
      Wasn’t common, but a few jurisdictions had a weirdly literal take on essential retail.
  - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jeofken 5y ago
Let’s keep in mind how crazy the average citizen is. Half are even crazier
- accountLost 5y ago
  That would be the median, not the average (but then it sounds less funny somehow...)
  - nostromo 5y ago
    Since you opened the door to pedantry… median and mean are both ways of calculating an average. Usually we mean “mean” when saying “average” because it’s the most common - but not always.
- readflaggedcomm 5y ago
  Only if crazy is normally-distributed.
throwawayboise 5y ago
There's a tendency with people in authority to want to be seen as engaged and acting responsibly, so they "do something" such as take a half step towards the more extreme response, even if rationally the half-step does nothing. Or such is my observation.
- nitwit005 5y ago
  Yep. Something must be done, so they do something. People often do seem much happier when some action is taken, even if they know it's meaningless, so it's not exactly an irrational response on the part of the leadership.
- seriousquestion 5y ago
  That's part of it. Another is that they tend to have authoritarian tendencies.
SllX 5y ago
A democracy is just government by its people. People will try to pass any sort of law they fancy will do the thing they want it to do, whether or not it actually will is besides the point. The quality of the government is still going to be a factor of the quality of the people that a government can be drawn from, and legislative branches are often the most powerful in a free society precisely because if they could speak with one voice, there’s effectively no law they could not pass. That’s why they are bodies of distinguishable and accountable people instead of individuals.
- nostromo 5y ago
  This is why the Bill of Rights is important in the US. I wish we would expand it. Democracies without explicit limitations on government power too often just become tyranny by the majority.
- leppr 5y ago
  > A democracy is just government by its people. In theory yes that's what Democracy originally meant. In practice the "democracies" we know are "government by some group of popular noblemen" not by "its people".
  - SllX 5y ago
    Dunno about South Korea or your government, but that’s short selling all the democracies that give a wide variety of people enough rope to hang all their neighbors and then themselves with. My envelope of ballots are often 3 or 4 pages front and back, mostly offices to be filled but generally a good stack of ballot initiatives to go with them, covering two or three elections. Sometimes twice a year. And that’s just the electoral process. Self-government extends far beyond the ballot box.
yongjik 5y ago
I don't follow this argument. By your own argument, the government could simply close the gyms - and it even has the power! But because they feared political backlash (this wonderful thing called "democracy"), the government made a stupid compromise and settled with a lesser (and less effective) restriction, and this proves that the government has too much power?
- leppr 5y ago
  This is an arbitrary decision that a proper democratic decision making process would not end up on.
  - lifthrasiir 5y ago
    It is not arbitrary, the very decision to limit high intensity workouts including the BPM restriction is coordinated between the government and gyms (the Korea Fitness Manager Association in this case) [1]. [1] https://www.nocutnews.co.kr/news/5586611 https://www.nocutnews.co.kr/news/5586611 "거리를 두고 기본적인 방역수칙 외에도 특히 차단해야 되는 부분들에 대한 수칙을 만들기 위해서 애를 썼고, 관련 협회들에서도 그런 측면에서 어떤 것들을 좀 차단시키고 노력하겠다, 라고 제시한 수칙입니다." (Rough translation: In addition to the basic prevention measures like social distancing, we have also tried to make a list of especially required additional measures that the related associations have agreed upon with that context.)
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  In essence, closing the gyms is a straightforward action the government can take. The government is exercising their power, but the scope is limited. By allowing the gyms to remain open only if they implement a multitude of restrictions based on a tier system seems like the government is intervening with a greater scope. Closing the gym is simple, they have the authority to do that. Telling gyms they cannot run treadmills past 6 km/h and cannot play music faster than 120 bpm seems like a much bigger exercise of power than telling the gyms they can't be open. Was the ability to make such detailed restrictions granted by law? Or only assumed to be allowable in the name of public health? Does my perspective seem a bit more approachable using that lens?
ridaj 5y ago
I think the problem here is democracies attempting to exercise restraint in response to popular concerns about overreach. I'm pretty sure the more effective response from a public health standpoint, and probably the starting point of the negotiation, would be to close cluster-friendly places like indoor gyms hard and early. Some special interest - gym owners, restaurants, whatever - gets in and says, but but we pRoMiSe to behave. What happens next in too many democracies is unfortunately this: some wishy-washy middle ground is negotiated that is politically acceptable but ineffective in reality, the epidemic gets out of control and then you get REAL overreach for a really long time, like long-term travel restrictions, curfews, etc.

nszceta 5y ago

A sizable portion of South Koreans still believe in fan death.

effingwewt 5y ago
I had to look this up as I'd never heard of it before. I don't even know what this makes me more of- sad, or impressed they pulled this off.

015a 5y ago

This is what we call "compromise"; when you've got a reasonable position on one side, a reasonable position on the other, and the solution is to meet in the middle and produce policy which is totally unreasonable and makes no one happy.

thrower123 5y ago
Or, you have a reasonable policy on one side, and a batshit crazy policy on the other, so the "compromise" is a half-way batshit crazy policy.
BitwiseFool 5y ago
This reminds me of how grocery stores were allowed to remain open, but the greeting card aisle was taped off because they didn't want people going to birthday parties. It felt like insanity, what if I wanted to send a card in-lieu of going to a gathering? Didn't matter. They weren't going to sell me one.
- beamatronic 5y ago
  Surely you are joking about the taped-off greeting cards?
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    I don't have a photo of my own experience, but here's a news article with one: https://www.cpr.org/2020/04/06/in-summit-county-essential-businesses-cant-sell-you-non-essential-stuff/ https://www.cpr.org/2020/04/06/in-summit-county-essential-bu...
    - phillc73 5y ago
      My crazy experience in Austria was that one was unable to buy plastic forks. Packets of plastic knives were still on shelves, but the forks had been removed. I thought it was random luck, but three large supermarkets were the same. I guess they really didn’t want people eating at those forbidden gatherings.
      - hnbad 5y ago
        Seems more likely that they were just in short supply. Plastic forks always sell better than other plastic cutlery. I don't think there's much panic buying of plastic forks but it's the kind of item they probably weren't in a hurry to restock when there's a massive run on toilet paper and pasta.
    - ksaj 5y ago
      In Toronto, the Dollarama until just a few days ago, had many of their shelves blocked off. You could get food, candy, pet supplies, batteries but you couldn't get books, toys, clothing, headphones... I thought it was all pretty random and bizarre.
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    Wasn’t common, but a few jurisdictions had a weirdly literal take on essential retail.
- 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jeofken 5y ago

Let’s keep in mind how crazy the average citizen is. Half are even crazier

accountLost 5y ago
That would be the median, not the average (but then it sounds less funny somehow...)
- nostromo 5y ago
  Since you opened the door to pedantry… median and mean are both ways of calculating an average. Usually we mean “mean” when saying “average” because it’s the most common - but not always.
readflaggedcomm 5y ago
Only if crazy is normally-distributed.

throwawayboise 5y ago

There's a tendency with people in authority to want to be seen as engaged and acting responsibly, so they "do something" such as take a half step towards the more extreme response, even if rationally the half-step does nothing. Or such is my observation.

nitwit005 5y ago
Yep. Something must be done, so they do something. People often do seem much happier when some action is taken, even if they know it's meaningless, so it's not exactly an irrational response on the part of the leadership.
seriousquestion 5y ago
That's part of it. Another is that they tend to have authoritarian tendencies.

SllX 5y ago

A democracy is just government by its people. People will try to pass any sort of law they fancy will do the thing they want it to do, whether or not it actually will is besides the point. The quality of the government is still going to be a factor of the quality of the people that a government can be drawn from, and legislative branches are often the most powerful in a free society precisely because if they could speak with one voice, there’s effectively no law they could not pass. That’s why they are bodies of distinguishable and accountable people instead of individuals.

nostromo 5y ago
This is why the Bill of Rights is important in the US. I wish we would expand it. Democracies without explicit limitations on government power too often just become tyranny by the majority.
leppr 5y ago
> A democracy is just government by its people. In theory yes that's what Democracy originally meant. In practice the "democracies" we know are "government by some group of popular noblemen" not by "its people".
- SllX 5y ago
  Dunno about South Korea or your government, but that’s short selling all the democracies that give a wide variety of people enough rope to hang all their neighbors and then themselves with. My envelope of ballots are often 3 or 4 pages front and back, mostly offices to be filled but generally a good stack of ballot initiatives to go with them, covering two or three elections. Sometimes twice a year. And that’s just the electoral process. Self-government extends far beyond the ballot box.

yongjik 5y ago

I don't follow this argument. By your own argument, the government could simply close the gyms - and it even has the power! But because they feared political backlash (this wonderful thing called "democracy"), the government made a stupid compromise and settled with a lesser (and less effective) restriction, and this proves that the government has too much power?

leppr 5y ago
This is an arbitrary decision that a proper democratic decision making process would not end up on.
- lifthrasiir 5y ago
  It is not arbitrary, the very decision to limit high intensity workouts including the BPM restriction is coordinated between the government and gyms (the Korea Fitness Manager Association in this case) [1]. [1] https://www.nocutnews.co.kr/news/5586611 https://www.nocutnews.co.kr/news/5586611 "거리를 두고 기본적인 방역수칙 외에도 특히 차단해야 되는 부분들에 대한 수칙을 만들기 위해서 애를 썼고, 관련 협회들에서도 그런 측면에서 어떤 것들을 좀 차단시키고 노력하겠다, 라고 제시한 수칙입니다." (Rough translation: In addition to the basic prevention measures like social distancing, we have also tried to make a list of especially required additional measures that the related associations have agreed upon with that context.)
BitwiseFool 5y ago
In essence, closing the gyms is a straightforward action the government can take. The government is exercising their power, but the scope is limited. By allowing the gyms to remain open only if they implement a multitude of restrictions based on a tier system seems like the government is intervening with a greater scope. Closing the gym is simple, they have the authority to do that. Telling gyms they cannot run treadmills past 6 km/h and cannot play music faster than 120 bpm seems like a much bigger exercise of power than telling the gyms they can't be open. Was the ability to make such detailed restrictions granted by law? Or only assumed to be allowable in the name of public health? Does my perspective seem a bit more approachable using that lens?

ridaj 5y ago

I think the problem here is democracies attempting to exercise restraint in response to popular concerns about overreach. I'm pretty sure the more effective response from a public health standpoint, and probably the starting point of the negotiation, would be to close cluster-friendly places like indoor gyms hard and early. Some special interest - gym owners, restaurants, whatever - gets in and says, but but we pRoMiSe to behave. What happens next in too many democracies is unfortunately this: some wishy-washy middle ground is negotiated that is politically acceptable but ineffective in reality, the epidemic gets out of control and then you get REAL overreach for a really long time, like long-term travel restrictions, curfews, etc.