5 ms·

> fleeing on boats is really not uncommon To escape a country, or to enter a country? The example you gave is the latter. Do you have any examples of the forme

> fleeing on boats is really not uncommon To escape a country, or to enter a country? The example you gave is the latter. Do you have any examples of the former?

pjc50 5y ago
... how do you propose escaping without then entering somewhere else? Same thing, surely?
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Except for motive. Consider the saying "People don't leave jobs, they leave bosses." Sure, you're getting a new job, not just leaving an old one. But what they're really doing is leaving that jerk of a boss. In the same way, you can be "going to America", or you can be "escaping from Cuba". Same thing in terms of actions, but not at all the same in terms of motive.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    I don't exactly follow. When my family emigrated from an impoverished North African nation, we were escaping poverty and dysfunction just as much as we were going to richer countries.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      Sure, it can be both at once. But it doesn't have to be. Let's say I'm in Venezuela, and I'm tired of the "Maduro diet", i.e., borderline starvation. I'll go to Colombia or Brazil, or Guyana. Or I'll go through Colombia to Panama or Peru or Ecuador. Any of the above. I'm leaving Venezuela more than I'm going to somewhere. In contrast, consider the caravans that show up at the southern US border. They're often from Honduras. But the people in them didn't stop at Guatemala or Belize or Mexico. No, they're coming to the US, not just leaving Honduras.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        I really don't follow. The incentive is the same. You want to go from a poorer place to a richer place. You obviously don't want to go to a place where your economic situation won't improve.
- alentist 5y ago
  > Same thing, surely? No, not the same thing at all. Forcibly stopping your citizens from leaving your country altogether is not the same thing as another country stopping them from entering theirs. Communist countries have historically implemented strict emigration policies [0]. For example, East Germany famously had a policy of mass-murdering citizens who tried to escape to the West [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_Eastern_Bloc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_Eastern_Bl... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schießbefehl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schießbefehl
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Cuba is not stopping anyone from leaving for a while, but yes this was a policy during the Castro era.
    - alentist 5y ago
      > Cuba is not stopping anyone from leaving That's a step in the right direction, if true. Do you have a source for it? This older article [0] says: President Raul Castro said the regime will still decide who can renew or obtain passports. The government will protect "human capital" in its decision-making, and travel can be denied for "national security reasons." Those deemed necessary to the Cuba socialist revolution — professionals such as doctors, scientists and engineers — can be prevented from departing. The "national security" clause worries some opposition figures. [0] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/11/cuba-exit-visas/1694569/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/11/cuba-ex...
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        It also appears that a Cuban passport is ~5 months of salary for a Cuban, which is a limiting factor in expatriating. I would be curious what a crowdsourced effort to fund passports and travel out of Cuba does to the government's posture and position on Cuban's leaving the country.
        5y ago
sudosysgen 5y ago
If you were ever in such a situation, you'd know that by far the biggest limiting factor is actually the cost of the plane ticket and the visa. There isn't much of a distinction between both. Cuba fully ended exit visas 8 years ago.
- alentist 5y ago
  That doesn't answer the question, which is about emigration illegality being "not uncommon".
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Emigration is legal for 99% of Cubans though. The issue is that the cost of emigrating is more than a years salary.
    - alentist 5y ago
      > Emigration is legal for 99% of Cubans though. Do you have a source for that? This [0] suggests otherwise. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27813742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27813742

> fleeing on boats is really not uncommon To escape a country, or to enter a country? The example you gave is the latter. Do you have any examples of the former?

pjc50 5y ago

... how do you propose escaping without then entering somewhere else? Same thing, surely?

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Except for motive. Consider the saying "People don't leave jobs, they leave bosses." Sure, you're getting a new job, not just leaving an old one. But what they're really doing is leaving that jerk of a boss. In the same way, you can be "going to America", or you can be "escaping from Cuba". Same thing in terms of actions, but not at all the same in terms of motive.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  I don't exactly follow. When my family emigrated from an impoverished North African nation, we were escaping poverty and dysfunction just as much as we were going to richer countries.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Sure, it can be both at once. But it doesn't have to be. Let's say I'm in Venezuela, and I'm tired of the "Maduro diet", i.e., borderline starvation. I'll go to Colombia or Brazil, or Guyana. Or I'll go through Colombia to Panama or Peru or Ecuador. Any of the above. I'm leaving Venezuela more than I'm going to somewhere. In contrast, consider the caravans that show up at the southern US border. They're often from Honduras. But the people in them didn't stop at Guatemala or Belize or Mexico. No, they're coming to the US, not just leaving Honduras.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      I really don't follow. The incentive is the same. You want to go from a poorer place to a richer place. You obviously don't want to go to a place where your economic situation won't improve.
alentist 5y ago
> Same thing, surely? No, not the same thing at all. Forcibly stopping your citizens from leaving your country altogether is not the same thing as another country stopping them from entering theirs. Communist countries have historically implemented strict emigration policies [0]. For example, East Germany famously had a policy of mass-murdering citizens who tried to escape to the West [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_Eastern_Bloc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration_from_the_Eastern_Bl... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schießbefehl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schießbefehl
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Cuba is not stopping anyone from leaving for a while, but yes this was a policy during the Castro era.
  - alentist 5y ago
    > Cuba is not stopping anyone from leaving That's a step in the right direction, if true. Do you have a source for it? This older article [0] says: President Raul Castro said the regime will still decide who can renew or obtain passports. The government will protect "human capital" in its decision-making, and travel can be denied for "national security reasons." Those deemed necessary to the Cuba socialist revolution — professionals such as doctors, scientists and engineers — can be prevented from departing. The "national security" clause worries some opposition figures. [0] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/11/cuba-exit-visas/1694569/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/11/cuba-ex...
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      It also appears that a Cuban passport is ~5 months of salary for a Cuban, which is a limiting factor in expatriating. I would be curious what a crowdsourced effort to fund passports and travel out of Cuba does to the government's posture and position on Cuban's leaving the country.
      - 5y ago

sudosysgen 5y ago

If you were ever in such a situation, you'd know that by far the biggest limiting factor is actually the cost of the plane ticket and the visa. There isn't much of a distinction between both. Cuba fully ended exit visas 8 years ago.

alentist 5y ago
That doesn't answer the question, which is about emigration illegality being "not uncommon".
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Emigration is legal for 99% of Cubans though. The issue is that the cost of emigrating is more than a years salary.
  - alentist 5y ago
    > Emigration is legal for 99% of Cubans though. Do you have a source for that? This [0] suggests otherwise. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27813742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27813742