4 ms·

Cuba is in shambles because of communism and communist ideals.

sudosysgen 5y ago
Perhaps. I've lived in capitalist developing countries that were even poorer - hence people stuffing water bottles in their shirt - so I can't honestly conclude that it is the reason.
- seanicus 5y ago
  You're taking way too much of a good faith reading that comment. There's way more nuance than "communism bad," though it is very true that sanctions and the Castros and their cronies have both done great harm to Cuba.
seanicus 5y ago
Cuba has been in shambles since, at the very least, Batista came to power in a CIA-backed coup with monetary help from organized crime. After his government was overthrown all of that money dried up and the sanctions imposed (with no attempt at diplomacy) have choked the country out until this day. Yes, what little money comes in is siphoned off by the crooked Castro government, but there's a lot more to the history of Cuba and Latin America than "communism bad."
loloquwowndueo 5y ago
Right, with a capitalist system they’d laugh in the face of the economic blockades.
- jollybean 5y ago
  It's not a 'Blockade', which would normally mean someone trying to stop anyone/anything from entering or leaving. US Embargo against Cuba would surely be a drag on even a 'regular capitalist economy' - but at they same time they'd do just fine with it. They can trade anything with any of the other 180 nations of the world. Most prosperous nations don't trade that-that much with the US. And if they were open and fair, there'd be no embargo. Stop defending this murderous regime there are no excuses for them.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Not really. Other countries with "regular capitalist economies" if there is such a thing have been scared shitless of an embargo and every single one has seen economic disaster. The key to the embargo are two measures, the exclusion of Cuba from the global financial system, and the restriction on ships that docked in Cuba. Because of these, trade with Cuba from other countries is severely restricted. It's the same situation as the Iranian embargo, just even worse. As you can see in Iran even in capitalist countries it causes untold economic disruption. There would 1000% be a blockade even if Cuba became capitalist as long as it was opposed to US geopolitical interests. The US trades with endless murderous dictators and even traded with the USSR, the determining factor of the embargo is the Monroe doctrine, not anything else. Ever since 1776 Cuba has been struggling with escaping the American sphere of influence.
  - syops 5y ago
    The problem is that a country the U.S. embargoes isn't free to trade with all other countries since the U.S. prohibits any company that does business with the embargoed country from doing business in the U.S. The size of the U.S. economy being as large as it is makes a U.S. embargo effectively a global embargo.
    - Turing_Machine 5y ago
      > since the U.S. prohibits any company that does business with the embargoed country from doing business in the U.S. That is not true in this case, or even in general. Canada trades with Cuba, but is not restricted from trading with the United States. For example, you can freely purchase Cuban cigars in Canada. Another example: the U.S. had an embargo against Iran for many years, but that didn't stop Siemens in Germany from selling them uranium centrifuges, nor did it result in a U.S. embargo against Germany. Edit: here's a Canadian government site encouraging Canadian companies to do business with Cuba. https://www.tradecommissioner.gc.ca/cuba/index.aspx?lang=eng https://www.tradecommissioner.gc.ca/cuba/index.aspx?lang=eng
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
syops 5y ago
The trade embargo has much to do with this. Is there a prosperous country that the U.S. has embargoed for an extensive period of time. I suppose at one point Iran might have qualified but that would be because of oil. Nations that are largely excluded from the world market won't be prosperous is the main takeaway. Is (nominal) communism to blame for the rise of China?
- alentist 5y ago
  Cuba trades with Venezuela, China, Spain, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and the Netherlands. The rise of China is due to the economic reforms [0] launched in the late 70s by Deng Xiaoping and continued by his successors: The Communist Party authorities carried out the market reforms in two stages. The first stage, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, involved the de-collectivization of agriculture, the opening up of the country to foreign investment, and permission for entrepreneurs to start businesses. However, a large percentage of industries remained state-owned. The second stage of reform, in the late 1980s and 1990s, involved the privatization and contracting out of much state-owned industry. The 1985 lifting of price controls[11] was a major reform, and the lifting of protectionist policies and regulations soon followed, although state monopolies in sectors such as banking and petroleum remained. In 2001, China joined the World Trade Organization (WTO). The private sector grew remarkably, accounting for as much as 70 percent of China's gross domestic product by 2005.[12] From 1978 until 2013, unprecedented growth occurred, with the economy increasing by 9.5% a year. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform
  - syops 5y ago
    Yes, I know this. I was employing the same logic as the person I responded to. Namely, that since Cuba is a failure then it must be communism's fault. I just reversed things a bit. I was pointing out that simplistic reasoning is not sufficient to explain complex geopolitical situations.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    That is certainly true, yet at the same time setting up free markets to get investment from capitalist nations is a Communist technique since 1922. Deng Xiaoping himself admitted that his reforms were inspired by Lenin setting up the same system in the USSR. So in the end I think neither of you are really wrong.

Perhaps. I've lived in capitalist developing countries that were even poorer - hence people stuffing water bottles in their shirt - so I can't honestly conclude that it is the reason.

seanicus 5y ago
You're taking way too much of a good faith reading that comment. There's way more nuance than "communism bad," though it is very true that sanctions and the Castros and their cronies have both done great harm to Cuba.

seanicus 5y ago

Cuba has been in shambles since, at the very least, Batista came to power in a CIA-backed coup with monetary help from organized crime. After his government was overthrown all of that money dried up and the sanctions imposed (with no attempt at diplomacy) have choked the country out until this day. Yes, what little money comes in is siphoned off by the crooked Castro government, but there's a lot more to the history of Cuba and Latin America than "communism bad."

loloquwowndueo 5y ago

Right, with a capitalist system they’d laugh in the face of the economic blockades.

jollybean 5y ago
It's not a 'Blockade', which would normally mean someone trying to stop anyone/anything from entering or leaving. US Embargo against Cuba would surely be a drag on even a 'regular capitalist economy' - but at they same time they'd do just fine with it. They can trade anything with any of the other 180 nations of the world. Most prosperous nations don't trade that-that much with the US. And if they were open and fair, there'd be no embargo. Stop defending this murderous regime there are no excuses for them.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Not really. Other countries with "regular capitalist economies" if there is such a thing have been scared shitless of an embargo and every single one has seen economic disaster. The key to the embargo are two measures, the exclusion of Cuba from the global financial system, and the restriction on ships that docked in Cuba. Because of these, trade with Cuba from other countries is severely restricted. It's the same situation as the Iranian embargo, just even worse. As you can see in Iran even in capitalist countries it causes untold economic disruption. There would 1000% be a blockade even if Cuba became capitalist as long as it was opposed to US geopolitical interests. The US trades with endless murderous dictators and even traded with the USSR, the determining factor of the embargo is the Monroe doctrine, not anything else. Ever since 1776 Cuba has been struggling with escaping the American sphere of influence.
- syops 5y ago
  The problem is that a country the U.S. embargoes isn't free to trade with all other countries since the U.S. prohibits any company that does business with the embargoed country from doing business in the U.S. The size of the U.S. economy being as large as it is makes a U.S. embargo effectively a global embargo.
  - Turing_Machine 5y ago
    > since the U.S. prohibits any company that does business with the embargoed country from doing business in the U.S. That is not true in this case, or even in general. Canada trades with Cuba, but is not restricted from trading with the United States. For example, you can freely purchase Cuban cigars in Canada. Another example: the U.S. had an embargo against Iran for many years, but that didn't stop Siemens in Germany from selling them uranium centrifuges, nor did it result in a U.S. embargo against Germany. Edit: here's a Canadian government site encouraging Canadian companies to do business with Cuba. https://www.tradecommissioner.gc.ca/cuba/index.aspx?lang=eng https://www.tradecommissioner.gc.ca/cuba/index.aspx?lang=eng
    - sudosysgen 5y ago

syops 5y ago

The trade embargo has much to do with this. Is there a prosperous country that the U.S. has embargoed for an extensive period of time. I suppose at one point Iran might have qualified but that would be because of oil. Nations that are largely excluded from the world market won't be prosperous is the main takeaway. Is (nominal) communism to blame for the rise of China?

alentist 5y ago
Cuba trades with Venezuela, China, Spain, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and the Netherlands. The rise of China is due to the economic reforms [0] launched in the late 70s by Deng Xiaoping and continued by his successors: The Communist Party authorities carried out the market reforms in two stages. The first stage, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, involved the de-collectivization of agriculture, the opening up of the country to foreign investment, and permission for entrepreneurs to start businesses. However, a large percentage of industries remained state-owned. The second stage of reform, in the late 1980s and 1990s, involved the privatization and contracting out of much state-owned industry. The 1985 lifting of price controls[11] was a major reform, and the lifting of protectionist policies and regulations soon followed, although state monopolies in sectors such as banking and petroleum remained. In 2001, China joined the World Trade Organization (WTO). The private sector grew remarkably, accounting for as much as 70 percent of China's gross domestic product by 2005.[12] From 1978 until 2013, unprecedented growth occurred, with the economy increasing by 9.5% a year. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform
- syops 5y ago
  Yes, I know this. I was employing the same logic as the person I responded to. Namely, that since Cuba is a failure then it must be communism's fault. I just reversed things a bit. I was pointing out that simplistic reasoning is not sufficient to explain complex geopolitical situations.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  That is certainly true, yet at the same time setting up free markets to get investment from capitalist nations is a Communist technique since 1922. Deng Xiaoping himself admitted that his reforms were inspired by Lenin setting up the same system in the USSR. So in the end I think neither of you are really wrong.