5 ms·

> To be clear, you think that shipping molten salt to the other side of the world so that it can make steam to make electricity is viable because oil is shipped

> To be clear, you think that shipping molten salt to the other side of the world so that it can make steam to make electricity is viable because oil is shipped in tankers? Yes, if needed ("to the other side of the world" could very well mean from AU to SG, and not USA to SG [although that happens now in some cases to meet demand]). LNG and CL are shipped across the world so that it can make steam to make electricity now (as well as for heating). I can imagine it might be hard for some to fathom that doing it this way may work out better at scale than trying to build CSP plants in regions with low irradiance/ limited land availability/etc.

CyberDildonics 5y ago
All the person you replied to said was that they live in a region without sun, you are the one that took this into the territory of shipping molten salt for some reason. There are plenty of places that don't have much sun that are already connected to places that do. They are are connected by copper wires. There is no universe where trying to ship molten salt and keep it hot so it can turn water into steam is viable. Oil doesn't rely on heat gradients and doesn't lose its energy when put in a tank for a week. A copper cable carries electricity indefinitely. Also remember that everywhere already has electricity from somewhere. Solar generation is not shipping from one place to another far away, it is offsetting power to somewhere in between.
- cinquemb 5y ago
  > All the person you replied to said was that they live in a region without sun, you are the one that took this into the territory of shipping molten salt for some reason. Because it is an option, just like it is an option for those to place a bunch of PV down and not bother with storage costs for that. Some options will work for some and not for others. And electricity needs to come from some source, ideally one that can provide more than +4hs and affordably. > A copper cable carries electricity indefinitely. All fields fall with distance from the source… shipping a source (like LNG, CL, and perhaps MS in the future) around to local nodes where it can be delivered with copper cables (after burning and combustion) is not beyond current logistics (and nor is factoring evaporation losses with LNG now). > There are plenty of places that don't have much sun that are already connected to places that do. They are are connected by copper wires. Right, tell that to every country that still imports hydrocarbons to burn for electricity/heat… > There is no universe where trying to ship molten salt and keep it hot so it can turn water into steam is viable. Oil doesn't rely on heat gradients and doesn't lose its energy when put in a tank for a week. I'm pretty sure that it will eventually be possible to have vacuum storage to keep it hot for longer than 17.5 hours with enough delta_k above freezing to provide a predictable amount of energy, so saying "There is no universe" would only apply to those like yourself who deem it beyond the realm of reason (which many things in this world tend to be for those who have walked it, thankfully progress isn't limited by such people in the long run). Interesting that the notion of a multiverse you appeal to with "There is no universe" seems more realistic than the above… > Solar generation is not shipping from one place to another far away, it is offsetting power to somewhere in between. Solar collection is when you need to think about the infrastructure and the surface area needed if you want to do it on a large scale; perhaps beyond realm possibility of what some deem needed for any place in particular…
  - CyberDildonics 5y ago
    > And electricity needs to come from some source, ideally one that can provide more than +4hs and affordably. Electricity already comes from a lot of sources. It is pretty myopic to think people talking about solar panels means replacing all electricity generation with solar. Solar installations already pay for themselves in under 7 years in sunny areas. Peak electricity use is in the summer during the day, when solar would have the most impact and can be double the energy used at night. > Right, tell that to every country that still imports hydrocarbons to burn for electricity/heat… I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, no one thinks that all potential solar power is already installed, this is about what happens in the future with rapidly decreasing solar prices. Also I don't know why you are talking about entire countries, all the parent poster said was that 'they live in an area without sun'. You keep bringing up shipping molten salt around the world for some bizarre reason. Electricity grids are meant to route power. > I'm pretty sure that it will eventually be possible to have vacuum storage to keep it hot for longer than 17.5 hours with enough delta_k above freezing Lol, show me where this anything like this has made money. Coal isn't even as viable anymore and that is dug out of the ground and shipped by rail. Molten salt would have to be super heated and then enormous amounts of energy would have to be used to move it. Do you actually think that molten salt, with a melting temperature that is double what it takes to start weakening steel as well as being corrosive (https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zjb2pv4/revision/2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zjb2pv4/revision/2) is going to be better to transport energy than copper cable (which is already run everywhere with electricity !)
    - nl 5y ago
      I like how HN arguments involve someone deciding they like a particular technology (concentrated solar) and then imagining an entire non-existant R&D program and industrial infrastructure to support it, despite the physical, economic and technological arguments all being against it.
      - cinquemb 5y ago
        > I like how HN arguments involve someone deciding they like a particular technology (concentrated solar) and then imagining an entire non-existant R&D program and industrial infrastructure to support it, despite the physical, economic and technological arguments all being against it. Right, tell that to all the places rolling out CSP…

CyberDildonics 5y ago

All the person you replied to said was that they live in a region without sun, you are the one that took this into the territory of shipping molten salt for some reason. There are plenty of places that don't have much sun that are already connected to places that do. They are are connected by copper wires. There is no universe where trying to ship molten salt and keep it hot so it can turn water into steam is viable. Oil doesn't rely on heat gradients and doesn't lose its energy when put in a tank for a week. A copper cable carries electricity indefinitely. Also remember that everywhere already has electricity from somewhere. Solar generation is not shipping from one place to another far away, it is offsetting power to somewhere in between.

cinquemb 5y ago
> All the person you replied to said was that they live in a region without sun, you are the one that took this into the territory of shipping molten salt for some reason. Because it is an option, just like it is an option for those to place a bunch of PV down and not bother with storage costs for that. Some options will work for some and not for others. And electricity needs to come from some source, ideally one that can provide more than +4hs and affordably. > A copper cable carries electricity indefinitely. All fields fall with distance from the source… shipping a source (like LNG, CL, and perhaps MS in the future) around to local nodes where it can be delivered with copper cables (after burning and combustion) is not beyond current logistics (and nor is factoring evaporation losses with LNG now). > There are plenty of places that don't have much sun that are already connected to places that do. They are are connected by copper wires. Right, tell that to every country that still imports hydrocarbons to burn for electricity/heat… > There is no universe where trying to ship molten salt and keep it hot so it can turn water into steam is viable. Oil doesn't rely on heat gradients and doesn't lose its energy when put in a tank for a week. I'm pretty sure that it will eventually be possible to have vacuum storage to keep it hot for longer than 17.5 hours with enough delta_k above freezing to provide a predictable amount of energy, so saying "There is no universe" would only apply to those like yourself who deem it beyond the realm of reason (which many things in this world tend to be for those who have walked it, thankfully progress isn't limited by such people in the long run). Interesting that the notion of a multiverse you appeal to with "There is no universe" seems more realistic than the above… > Solar generation is not shipping from one place to another far away, it is offsetting power to somewhere in between. Solar collection is when you need to think about the infrastructure and the surface area needed if you want to do it on a large scale; perhaps beyond realm possibility of what some deem needed for any place in particular…
- CyberDildonics 5y ago
  > And electricity needs to come from some source, ideally one that can provide more than +4hs and affordably. Electricity already comes from a lot of sources. It is pretty myopic to think people talking about solar panels means replacing all electricity generation with solar. Solar installations already pay for themselves in under 7 years in sunny areas. Peak electricity use is in the summer during the day, when solar would have the most impact and can be double the energy used at night. > Right, tell that to every country that still imports hydrocarbons to burn for electricity/heat… I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, no one thinks that all potential solar power is already installed, this is about what happens in the future with rapidly decreasing solar prices. Also I don't know why you are talking about entire countries, all the parent poster said was that 'they live in an area without sun'. You keep bringing up shipping molten salt around the world for some bizarre reason. Electricity grids are meant to route power. > I'm pretty sure that it will eventually be possible to have vacuum storage to keep it hot for longer than 17.5 hours with enough delta_k above freezing Lol, show me where this anything like this has made money. Coal isn't even as viable anymore and that is dug out of the ground and shipped by rail. Molten salt would have to be super heated and then enormous amounts of energy would have to be used to move it. Do you actually think that molten salt, with a melting temperature that is double what it takes to start weakening steel as well as being corrosive (https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zjb2pv4/revision/2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zjb2pv4/revision/2) is going to be better to transport energy than copper cable (which is already run everywhere with electricity !)
  - nl 5y ago
    I like how HN arguments involve someone deciding they like a particular technology (concentrated solar) and then imagining an entire non-existant R&D program and industrial infrastructure to support it, despite the physical, economic and technological arguments all being against it.
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      > I like how HN arguments involve someone deciding they like a particular technology (concentrated solar) and then imagining an entire non-existant R&D program and industrial infrastructure to support it, despite the physical, economic and technological arguments all being against it. Right, tell that to all the places rolling out CSP…