3 ms·

Do you have any firm source for this or is this just your general belief? Whenever I’ve done the above, I’ve both lost fat and gained muscle at the same time.

by graeme 5y ago

Do you have any firm source for this or is this just your general belief? Whenever I’ve done the above, I’ve both lost fat and gained muscle at the same time. And once you are at the desired waist level, you do not need to be in a calorie deficit. I’m not 60, but I don’t know of any biological reason that leads to more fat and less muscle with age for the same calorie intake. Leangains is the best method for combating the issue you speak of, but I’m not doing that presently other since the workout I describe everyday. Leangains is a method of cycling macronutrients: more carbs on workout days, more fat on rest days.

0xcde4c3db 5y ago
> I’m not 60, but I don’t know of any biological reason that leads to more fat and less muscle with age for the same calorie intake. Not just more fat and less muscle, but also a higher ratio of visceral fat to subcutaneous fat (waist circumference generally being a proxy measurement for visceral fat, which is the actual thing we're worried about). [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3357299/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3357299/
- graeme 5y ago
  I only got a few pages in but that seems to be correlational? Does it day somewhere specifically that the same diet and exercise regime produces worse outcomes for older people? Perhaps I am misinterpreting your decision, but it seems like you are saying that in older people there is some inevitable tradeoff between waist circumference and lean mass, and that if one tries to lose fat they must grow weak or if one tries to grow strong they must gain fat. If older that is. This doesn’t seem to be true in practice for people in our society, and hunger gather societies didn’t have obese elders. I could believe it is harder to gain muscle when older, but I’m not convinced it becomes impossible to meet both goals with fairly modest effort.
  - 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
    > I only got a few pages in but that seems to be correlational? It's a review summarizing multiple kinds of evidence. > Does it day somewhere specifically that the same diet and exercise regime produces worse outcomes for older people? No; that was in response to your statement that you weren't aware of any biological factors affecting fat vs. muscle with age. I had also tried to search for studies that specifically tested diet and exercise against age while distinguishing between lean and fat body mass (as opposed to just weight gain/loss), but didn't find any. This might just be that I don't know the jargon well enough to do an effective search; I'm not an expert, I just go to the literature on these topics because it's hard to find people summarizing it who aren't cherry-picking in order to sell something. > Perhaps I am misinterpreting your decision, but it seems like you are saying that in older people there is some inevitable tradeoff between waist circumference and lean mass, and that if one tries to lose fat they must grow weak or if one tries to grow strong they must gain fat. If older that is. Apart from a modicum of "noob gains", it's conventional wisdom that typical adults cannot readily gain muscle without also gaining fat or lose fat without also losing muscle, due to a shared baseline of anabolic vs. catabolic signaling. The key thing that makes diet and exercise programs worthwhile for changing body composition is that that while this might be true with respect to absolute amounts, the ratios aren't set in stone. But with age, those ratios tend to shift such that fat tends to be favored more, and the ratio of visceral fat to subcutaneous fat also tends to increase (so one typically needs to be leaner overall to maintain the same amount of visceral fat). So it tends to become harder to design an effective program, and I gather that it's already fairly difficult by 35 or so. I'm not making a claim that this is somehow written into the laws of physics (you're the one who brought words like "inevitable" and "must" into it), I'm just saying that based on my understanding of the consensus it's not at all clear that anyone really knows how to "maintain a low waist circumference and maintain muscle mass" in a way that works for most older people.
    - graeme 5y ago
      It’s certainly possible. But you seem to be mostly appealing to what “everyone knows”. But in our society basically everyone has a dysregulated metabolism. My hypothesis is that is you don’t let your system get out of whack, it is possible to maintain lean mass and be lean. Indeed this study found that resistance training can halt the accumulation of visceral fat. So unless somehow the resistance training led to no muscle, this seems to contradict what you’re arguing? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4018766/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4018766/

by graeme 5y ago

0xcde4c3db 5y ago

> I’m not 60, but I don’t know of any biological reason that leads to more fat and less muscle with age for the same calorie intake. Not just more fat and less muscle, but also a higher ratio of visceral fat to subcutaneous fat (waist circumference generally being a proxy measurement for visceral fat, which is the actual thing we're worried about). [1]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3357299/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3357299/

graeme 5y ago
I only got a few pages in but that seems to be correlational? Does it day somewhere specifically that the same diet and exercise regime produces worse outcomes for older people? Perhaps I am misinterpreting your decision, but it seems like you are saying that in older people there is some inevitable tradeoff between waist circumference and lean mass, and that if one tries to lose fat they must grow weak or if one tries to grow strong they must gain fat. If older that is. This doesn’t seem to be true in practice for people in our society, and hunger gather societies didn’t have obese elders. I could believe it is harder to gain muscle when older, but I’m not convinced it becomes impossible to meet both goals with fairly modest effort.
- 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
  > I only got a few pages in but that seems to be correlational? It's a review summarizing multiple kinds of evidence. > Does it day somewhere specifically that the same diet and exercise regime produces worse outcomes for older people? No; that was in response to your statement that you weren't aware of any biological factors affecting fat vs. muscle with age. I had also tried to search for studies that specifically tested diet and exercise against age while distinguishing between lean and fat body mass (as opposed to just weight gain/loss), but didn't find any. This might just be that I don't know the jargon well enough to do an effective search; I'm not an expert, I just go to the literature on these topics because it's hard to find people summarizing it who aren't cherry-picking in order to sell something. > Perhaps I am misinterpreting your decision, but it seems like you are saying that in older people there is some inevitable tradeoff between waist circumference and lean mass, and that if one tries to lose fat they must grow weak or if one tries to grow strong they must gain fat. If older that is. Apart from a modicum of "noob gains", it's conventional wisdom that typical adults cannot readily gain muscle without also gaining fat or lose fat without also losing muscle, due to a shared baseline of anabolic vs. catabolic signaling. The key thing that makes diet and exercise programs worthwhile for changing body composition is that that while this might be true with respect to absolute amounts, the ratios aren't set in stone. But with age, those ratios tend to shift such that fat tends to be favored more, and the ratio of visceral fat to subcutaneous fat also tends to increase (so one typically needs to be leaner overall to maintain the same amount of visceral fat). So it tends to become harder to design an effective program, and I gather that it's already fairly difficult by 35 or so. I'm not making a claim that this is somehow written into the laws of physics (you're the one who brought words like "inevitable" and "must" into it), I'm just saying that based on my understanding of the consensus it's not at all clear that anyone really knows how to "maintain a low waist circumference and maintain muscle mass" in a way that works for most older people.
  - graeme 5y ago
    It’s certainly possible. But you seem to be mostly appealing to what “everyone knows”. But in our society basically everyone has a dysregulated metabolism. My hypothesis is that is you don’t let your system get out of whack, it is possible to maintain lean mass and be lean. Indeed this study found that resistance training can halt the accumulation of visceral fat. So unless somehow the resistance training led to no muscle, this seems to contradict what you’re arguing? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4018766/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4018766/