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In this case, I'm glad it's actually targeting Apple. There are a bunch of small innovative companies targeted by patent trolls that don't have means of Apple t

In this case, I'm glad it's actually targeting Apple. There are a bunch of small innovative companies targeted by patent trolls that don't have means of Apple to fight back and actually change the system to be more level-headed. But I'm afraid Apple will not fight for the reform of the patent system, but will just try to protect itself. In which case I don't care about the outcome, since Apple also uses the same patent trolling tactics elsewhere to suppress its competition, e.g. litigations against Samsung in Germany, to name one such case.

Tenoke 5y ago
They are literally fighting it with this case, no? Exiting if they fail will also be great as it might become more clear to those who can change the system how much of a detriment it is.
- mjburgess 5y ago
  If apple's UK iPhone profits really are in the c. 50mil range, then a (5 to 10)bn fee to remain is commercially non-viable. Note that this is about Apple's ability to sell an iPhone in the UK, and as far as I can see, it wouldnt affect whether the entire company would remain in the UK. If I were apple, I would withdraw a product from a country which supported this kind of racketeering.
  - inertiatic 5y ago
    Apple sells 7 million iPhones a year in the UK, Google tells me. Even at just 100 profit a unit, should be way more than 50 million in profit. Ignoring income from other things like accessories, the store etc.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      Not to mention, the complementary effects. Someone buying an iPhone today is more likely to choose an Apple device as their laptop. Someone buying an iPhone today is more likely to buy another iPhone in a few years, over an Android phone.
      - bilbo0s 5y ago
        If it's only 7 million, then Apple would definitely leave. I had no idea it was that low. I would have thought it would be from 10 to 14. To put it in perspective, Apple sells 4 times that many in China. With China and the US being their bread and butter. Also, their marketshare in China and the US has way more upside. (Room for growth.) I can understand now. You definitely don't want to pay money to stay in a market that has less upside than your money makers. That would mean you're using money from your money makers to fund customers who are not your money makers. From a much smaller businessman's perspective, I'd file that under, "There are some customers out there that are too much trouble."
        Tsiklon 5y ago
        There are 65 Million people in the UK, China and the United States are significantly larger both in terms of population. I haven't checked the numbers, but it is not unreasonable to assume that there is a similar amount of iPhones sold per year per capita in the UK as compared to those other two markets.
  - Mindwipe 5y ago
    > If I were apple, I would withdraw a product from a country which supported this kind of racketeering. Lol. If this is "racketeering" then Apple will have to withdraw from literally every Western developed nation. This case only didn't happen in the US because the court didn't find the patent to be valid, by a thin margin.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    Leaving the UK market won't save them licence fees. They've already been incurred. It would be less like relatiation, more like flouncing off in a huff.
    - lights0123 5y ago
      > A court case later in July will determine whether Apple will have to make a legally binding pledge to abide by judge-set payout rates in the July 2022 trial They haven't paid them yet. And if they leave the market, they have no reason to pay it.
- rchaud 5y ago
  Doesn't seem to be that detrimental in China. Apple always manages to work something out over there.
londons_explore 5y ago
> bunch of small innovative companies The smart move for the patent troll is to target some of these smaller companies and write license agreements in the form of "I agree to pay $20 per device sold to license this patent". $20 is nothing to a company selling Ships, Oil rigs, tunnel boring machines, etc. Then when it comes to apple, paying $20 per iphone is suddenly rather expensive, but the troll can show the court lots of licensees all agreeing to pay that rate, and it can then be established as a reasonable rate for this specific patent.
rasz 5y ago
Apple is super pro patents, they never go for patent invalidation. Case in point they got sued by S3 for S3TC, despite S3TC being stolen Apple QuickTime Road Pizza patent https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758884 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758884, and caved in without much fight.
- tooltalk 5y ago
  Apple knows how to play the patent game and routinely petitions PTAB review to invalidate patents. I'm willing to wager that there are at least a few dozens of on-going reviews petitioned by Apple (and its proxy) at any given moment. Take for instance Apple's lawsuits with VirnetX which have been dragged out for several years appeal after appeal with multiple patent invalidations -- in one of the lawsuits, Apple ended up losing to the tune of $500+M, finally paid out in 2021. Apple is pro-patent -- and also one of the most egregious abuser -- insofaras it can game the system in their favor. Like many patent trolls, Apple also shops around for favorable legal outcome, aka, forum shopping, -- eg, Lucy Koh in Apple's backyard is one notorious example. And who can forget Apple's patent troll operation, Rockstar consortium, that crashed and burned as it was taking off.

Tenoke 5y ago

They are literally fighting it with this case, no? Exiting if they fail will also be great as it might become more clear to those who can change the system how much of a detriment it is.

mjburgess 5y ago
If apple's UK iPhone profits really are in the c. 50mil range, then a (5 to 10)bn fee to remain is commercially non-viable. Note that this is about Apple's ability to sell an iPhone in the UK, and as far as I can see, it wouldnt affect whether the entire company would remain in the UK. If I were apple, I would withdraw a product from a country which supported this kind of racketeering.
- inertiatic 5y ago
  Apple sells 7 million iPhones a year in the UK, Google tells me. Even at just 100 profit a unit, should be way more than 50 million in profit. Ignoring income from other things like accessories, the store etc.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    Not to mention, the complementary effects. Someone buying an iPhone today is more likely to choose an Apple device as their laptop. Someone buying an iPhone today is more likely to buy another iPhone in a few years, over an Android phone.
    - bilbo0s 5y ago
      If it's only 7 million, then Apple would definitely leave. I had no idea it was that low. I would have thought it would be from 10 to 14. To put it in perspective, Apple sells 4 times that many in China. With China and the US being their bread and butter. Also, their marketshare in China and the US has way more upside. (Room for growth.) I can understand now. You definitely don't want to pay money to stay in a market that has less upside than your money makers. That would mean you're using money from your money makers to fund customers who are not your money makers. From a much smaller businessman's perspective, I'd file that under, "There are some customers out there that are too much trouble."
      - Tsiklon 5y ago
        There are 65 Million people in the UK, China and the United States are significantly larger both in terms of population. I haven't checked the numbers, but it is not unreasonable to assume that there is a similar amount of iPhones sold per year per capita in the UK as compared to those other two markets.
- Mindwipe 5y ago
  > If I were apple, I would withdraw a product from a country which supported this kind of racketeering. Lol. If this is "racketeering" then Apple will have to withdraw from literally every Western developed nation. This case only didn't happen in the US because the court didn't find the patent to be valid, by a thin margin.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  Leaving the UK market won't save them licence fees. They've already been incurred. It would be less like relatiation, more like flouncing off in a huff.
  - lights0123 5y ago
    > A court case later in July will determine whether Apple will have to make a legally binding pledge to abide by judge-set payout rates in the July 2022 trial They haven't paid them yet. And if they leave the market, they have no reason to pay it.
rchaud 5y ago
Doesn't seem to be that detrimental in China. Apple always manages to work something out over there.

londons_explore 5y ago

> bunch of small innovative companies The smart move for the patent troll is to target some of these smaller companies and write license agreements in the form of "I agree to pay $20 per device sold to license this patent". $20 is nothing to a company selling Ships, Oil rigs, tunnel boring machines, etc. Then when it comes to apple, paying $20 per iphone is suddenly rather expensive, but the troll can show the court lots of licensees all agreeing to pay that rate, and it can then be established as a reasonable rate for this specific patent.

rasz 5y ago

Apple is super pro patents, they never go for patent invalidation. Case in point they got sued by S3 for S3TC, despite S3TC being stolen Apple QuickTime Road Pizza patent https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758884 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26758884, and caved in without much fight.

tooltalk 5y ago
Apple knows how to play the patent game and routinely petitions PTAB review to invalidate patents. I'm willing to wager that there are at least a few dozens of on-going reviews petitioned by Apple (and its proxy) at any given moment. Take for instance Apple's lawsuits with VirnetX which have been dragged out for several years appeal after appeal with multiple patent invalidations -- in one of the lawsuits, Apple ended up losing to the tune of $500+M, finally paid out in 2021. Apple is pro-patent -- and also one of the most egregious abuser -- insofaras it can game the system in their favor. Like many patent trolls, Apple also shops around for favorable legal outcome, aka, forum shopping, -- eg, Lucy Koh in Apple's backyard is one notorious example. And who can forget Apple's patent troll operation, Rockstar consortium, that crashed and burned as it was taking off.