4 ms·

I don't think that nerds have an inbound tact filter. I don't think this is a good explanation of going on. If you spent twenty years being called a "smart kid

I don't think that nerds have an inbound tact filter. I don't think this is a good explanation of going on. If you spent twenty years being called a "smart kid" and then went to a job where all the smart kids end up, then you may have a rock-solid self-image. That gives you a certain amount of immunity to tactless comments. It also gives you the confidence to make tactless comments. On the other hand, not all the people you want to work with grew up that way or have that kind of self-image. In order to avoid hurting people around you, you should learn to speak tactfully. I think what happened is just that nerds care about speaking directly. There are also a number of types of neurodiversity over-represented in nerds, such as autism, ADHD, and social anxiety disorders. Speaking tactfully naturally takes extra time. An autistic person would not pick up on the necessary social cues in order to speak tactfully. Someone with ADHD may be irritated by the interruption and want to get back to work. Someone with social anxiety may just want to leave the interaction. Yet, in spite of this, there are plenty of nerds who care about tact, and make an effort to consider other people's feelings when they talk. The effort is appreciated.

michaelt 5y ago
> If you spent twenty years being called a "smart kid" [...] you may have a rock-solid self-image. This is, of course, why we programmers are famous for the delight we take in coding on a whiteboard in front of a large audience; the comfortable ease with which we talk to beautiful members of the opposite sex; and the fact none of us have ever been described as shy :)
- klodolph 5y ago
  Like everything else, it's contextual.
- majormajor 5y ago
  Look at it this way: we're all convinced the problem is the whiteboard interview itself, it couldn't possibly be that we're not as smart as we think we are. That's some pretty strong self-image of the "I'm a smart kid" sort.
  - user1980 5y ago
    The problem is interruptions, not my ability to focus. The problem is Product demanding estimates, not my ability to estimate in the midst of uncertainty and ask questions to reduce it. The problem is Java, C, or whatever "legacy" technology is being used. Despite the fact that the whole world runs on it.
  - jozvolskyef 5y ago
    One can have social anxiety and a rock-solid self-image as a scientist at the same time. The latter requires no social or synchronous communication skills.
bradleyjg 5y ago
If you spent twenty years being called a "smart kid" and then went to a job where all the smart kids end up, then you may have a rock-solid self-image. Growing up as a smart kid interested in computers from 1976-1996 was a very different experience than the same from 2001-2021.
- klodolph 5y ago
  Like everything else, it's contextual.
- majormajor 5y ago
  I don't know what growing up in the 2000s was like, but my experience in your referenced time frame is like the person you replied to: it's not gonna make you popular, it's not gonna make you friends with the cheerleaders, it might be part of an overall miserable experience - but being interested in computers certainly wasn't going to make anyone stop telling you you're smart.
- erdos4d 5y ago
  As someone who is closer to the 76-96 timeframe, could you give some insights into how you feel this has changed? I actually would like to know how the younger generation of nerds is faring these days, but I don't know any to ask.
  - anonfornoreason 5y ago
    From what I can see, it's much more acceptable to be nerdy. I have some younger cousins and nieces/nephews who have recently graduated high school or are currently about to start. It seems much easier to find a niche and not get bullied for being good in school or with technology. In other words, revenge of the nerds. Every toy out there is now STEM in some way (either in actuality or in branding), and everyone realizes that tech is more likely to make money.
pdonis 5y ago
> I don't think that nerds have an inbound tact filter. I don't think this is a good explanation of going on. Are you a nerd? I ask because it's extremely risky to speculate about how the minds of people of a type that you're not, work. That's precisely the problem we nerds have trying to understand non-nerds: their minds work differently and we don't understand how, at least not instinctively; we have to laboriously build up such understanding by hand, and we get reminded constantly of how limited our understanding is even after we've spent years building it up. > If you spent twenty years being called a "smart kid" and then went to a job where all the smart kids end up, then you may have a rock-solid self-image. That gives you a certain amount of immunity to tactless comments. It also gives you the confidence to make tactless comments. If you qualify all three of these sentences with "around other nerds", then they are true. But, at least in my own personal experience, they're not true without the qualifier. Food for thought: remember the studies that showed that kids who were told they were smart did less well on subsequent tests than kids who were told they had made a great effort? That's because "smart", at least the way we instinctively parse that word, is something not under our control. When someone tells me I'm "smart", I don't feel more confident, because "smart" is something I don't control; I can't command myself to be smart, the way I can command myself to make a concerted effort. So being told all the time that you're a smart kid doesn't actually improve your self-image. What does improve your self-image if you're a nerd is being told that some problem solution you came up with is right--provided it comes from someone whose opinion you expect to be right, such as another nerd or a teacher. Having that happen often as you're growing up does give you a lot of confidence when you're trying to solve the next problem. But that only works in an environment where correct solutions are the measure of value, i.e., around other nerds. > I think what happened is just that nerds care about speaking directly. That's true, but it's really just a side effect of the fact that nerds care about actually solving problems. Which implies that the best way to get a nerd to learn how to be tactful is to point out that doing so can help them to solve a problem: namely, how to cooperate effectively with non-nerds to get something useful accomplished. The inbound tact filter, in fact, is just the same sort of thing, but applied to interacting with other nerds. Nerds know that other nerds don't apply tact in the outbound direction, because they're too concerned with communicating accurate information to muddy it up with tact filters. But we nerds also know from experience that nobody, including us, likes to be told they're wrong, or that something they've worked hard on isn't done yet and needs more work. So we apply the inbound tact filter as a hack around our own emotions as much as anything else--to get us past the initial emotional reaction and on to actually solving the problem. At least, that's my experience.

michaelt 5y ago

> If you spent twenty years being called a "smart kid" [...] you may have a rock-solid self-image. This is, of course, why we programmers are famous for the delight we take in coding on a whiteboard in front of a large audience; the comfortable ease with which we talk to beautiful members of the opposite sex; and the fact none of us have ever been described as shy :)

klodolph 5y ago
Like everything else, it's contextual.
majormajor 5y ago
Look at it this way: we're all convinced the problem is the whiteboard interview itself, it couldn't possibly be that we're not as smart as we think we are. That's some pretty strong self-image of the "I'm a smart kid" sort.
- user1980 5y ago
  The problem is interruptions, not my ability to focus. The problem is Product demanding estimates, not my ability to estimate in the midst of uncertainty and ask questions to reduce it. The problem is Java, C, or whatever "legacy" technology is being used. Despite the fact that the whole world runs on it.
- jozvolskyef 5y ago
  One can have social anxiety and a rock-solid self-image as a scientist at the same time. The latter requires no social or synchronous communication skills.

bradleyjg 5y ago

If you spent twenty years being called a "smart kid" and then went to a job where all the smart kids end up, then you may have a rock-solid self-image. Growing up as a smart kid interested in computers from 1976-1996 was a very different experience than the same from 2001-2021.

klodolph 5y ago
Like everything else, it's contextual.
majormajor 5y ago
I don't know what growing up in the 2000s was like, but my experience in your referenced time frame is like the person you replied to: it's not gonna make you popular, it's not gonna make you friends with the cheerleaders, it might be part of an overall miserable experience - but being interested in computers certainly wasn't going to make anyone stop telling you you're smart.
erdos4d 5y ago
As someone who is closer to the 76-96 timeframe, could you give some insights into how you feel this has changed? I actually would like to know how the younger generation of nerds is faring these days, but I don't know any to ask.
- anonfornoreason 5y ago
  From what I can see, it's much more acceptable to be nerdy. I have some younger cousins and nieces/nephews who have recently graduated high school or are currently about to start. It seems much easier to find a niche and not get bullied for being good in school or with technology. In other words, revenge of the nerds. Every toy out there is now STEM in some way (either in actuality or in branding), and everyone realizes that tech is more likely to make money.

pdonis 5y ago

> I don't think that nerds have an inbound tact filter. I don't think this is a good explanation of going on. Are you a nerd? I ask because it's extremely risky to speculate about how the minds of people of a type that you're not, work. That's precisely the problem we nerds have trying to understand non-nerds: their minds work differently and we don't understand how, at least not instinctively; we have to laboriously build up such understanding by hand, and we get reminded constantly of how limited our understanding is even after we've spent years building it up. > If you spent twenty years being called a "smart kid" and then went to a job where all the smart kids end up, then you may have a rock-solid self-image. That gives you a certain amount of immunity to tactless comments. It also gives you the confidence to make tactless comments. If you qualify all three of these sentences with "around other nerds", then they are true. But, at least in my own personal experience, they're not true without the qualifier. Food for thought: remember the studies that showed that kids who were told they were smart did less well on subsequent tests than kids who were told they had made a great effort? That's because "smart", at least the way we instinctively parse that word, is something not under our control. When someone tells me I'm "smart", I don't feel more confident, because "smart" is something I don't control; I can't command myself to be smart, the way I can command myself to make a concerted effort. So being told all the time that you're a smart kid doesn't actually improve your self-image. What does improve your self-image if you're a nerd is being told that some problem solution you came up with is right--provided it comes from someone whose opinion you expect to be right, such as another nerd or a teacher. Having that happen often as you're growing up does give you a lot of confidence when you're trying to solve the next problem. But that only works in an environment where correct solutions are the measure of value, i.e., around other nerds. > I think what happened is just that nerds care about speaking directly. That's true, but it's really just a side effect of the fact that nerds care about actually solving problems. Which implies that the best way to get a nerd to learn how to be tactful is to point out that doing so can help them to solve a problem: namely, how to cooperate effectively with non-nerds to get something useful accomplished. The inbound tact filter, in fact, is just the same sort of thing, but applied to interacting with other nerds. Nerds know that other nerds don't apply tact in the outbound direction, because they're too concerned with communicating accurate information to muddy it up with tact filters. But we nerds also know from experience that nobody, including us, likes to be told they're wrong, or that something they've worked hard on isn't done yet and needs more work. So we apply the inbound tact filter as a hack around our own emotions as much as anything else--to get us past the initial emotional reaction and on to actually solving the problem. At least, that's my experience.