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> because I'm not super convinced that would work. I think its because you missed > ports Other energy products are shipped on tankers: CL, NG. Once they ar

> because I'm not super convinced that would work. I think its because you missed > ports Other energy products are shipped on tankers: CL, NG. Once they arrive at a certain country, they can be disbursed over roads and rail to plants; CI and residential alike.

VBprogrammer 5y ago
I haven't run the numbers but if I had to guess molten salt likely has an energy density a 1-2 orders of magnitude lower than CNG.
- cinquemb 5y ago
  22 MJ/liter for LNG, ~9.1 for CNG MJ/liter [0] Molten salt will vary depending on its heat capacity and delta_k above freezing point. 0.338048298841 MJ/liter for the typical NaNO3 KNO3 NaNO2 mixture (assuming a delta_k of ~300) 53.356955169699994 MJ/liter for something like CaCl2 45.5682%, MgCl2 54.4318% (Ionic halide, assuming a delta_k of ~1568) In the future I expect even higher delta_k for molten salts. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas#Specific_energy_content_and_energy_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas#Specific...
  - VBprogrammer 5y ago
    > assuming a delta_k of ~1568 I think we can go ahead and rule that out as impractical given we're talking about temperatures which are high enough to melt steel.
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      > I think we can go ahead and rule that out as impractical given we're talking about temperatures which are high enough to melt steel. I don't think steel will be used as the only form of confinement (certain kinds of ceramics come to mind can handle it now[0]), so agree to dissagree. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_ceramics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_ceramic...
CyberDildonics 5y ago
To be clear, you think that shipping molten salt to the other side of the world so that it can make steam to make electricity is viable because oil is shipped in tankers?
- cinquemb 5y ago
  > To be clear, you think that shipping molten salt to the other side of the world so that it can make steam to make electricity is viable because oil is shipped in tankers? Yes, if needed ("to the other side of the world" could very well mean from AU to SG, and not USA to SG [although that happens now in some cases to meet demand]). LNG and CL are shipped across the world so that it can make steam to make electricity now (as well as for heating). I can imagine it might be hard for some to fathom that doing it this way may work out better at scale than trying to build CSP plants in regions with low irradiance/ limited land availability/etc.
  - CyberDildonics 5y ago
    All the person you replied to said was that they live in a region without sun, you are the one that took this into the territory of shipping molten salt for some reason. There are plenty of places that don't have much sun that are already connected to places that do. They are are connected by copper wires. There is no universe where trying to ship molten salt and keep it hot so it can turn water into steam is viable. Oil doesn't rely on heat gradients and doesn't lose its energy when put in a tank for a week. A copper cable carries electricity indefinitely. Also remember that everywhere already has electricity from somewhere. Solar generation is not shipping from one place to another far away, it is offsetting power to somewhere in between.
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      > All the person you replied to said was that they live in a region without sun, you are the one that took this into the territory of shipping molten salt for some reason. Because it is an option, just like it is an option for those to place a bunch of PV down and not bother with storage costs for that. Some options will work for some and not for others. And electricity needs to come from some source, ideally one that can provide more than +4hs and affordably. > A copper cable carries electricity indefinitely. All fields fall with distance from the source… shipping a source (like LNG, CL, and perhaps MS in the future) around to local nodes where it can be delivered with copper cables (after burning and combustion) is not beyond current logistics (and nor is factoring evaporation losses with LNG now). > There are plenty of places that don't have much sun that are already connected to places that do. They are are connected by copper wires. Right, tell that to every country that still imports hydrocarbons to burn for electricity/heat… > There is no universe where trying to ship molten salt and keep it hot so it can turn water into steam is viable. Oil doesn't rely on heat gradients and doesn't lose its energy when put in a tank for a week. I'm pretty sure that it will eventually be possible to have vacuum storage to keep it hot for longer than 17.5 hours with enough delta_k above freezing to provide a predictable amount of energy, so saying "There is no universe" would only apply to those like yourself who deem it beyond the realm of reason (which many things in this world tend to be for those who have walked it, thankfully progress isn't limited by such people in the long run). Interesting that the notion of a multiverse you appeal to with "There is no universe" seems more realistic than the above… > Solar generation is not shipping from one place to another far away, it is offsetting power to somewhere in between. Solar collection is when you need to think about the infrastructure and the surface area needed if you want to do it on a large scale; perhaps beyond realm possibility of what some deem needed for any place in particular…

VBprogrammer 5y ago

I haven't run the numbers but if I had to guess molten salt likely has an energy density a 1-2 orders of magnitude lower than CNG.

cinquemb 5y ago
22 MJ/liter for LNG, ~9.1 for CNG MJ/liter [0] Molten salt will vary depending on its heat capacity and delta_k above freezing point. 0.338048298841 MJ/liter for the typical NaNO3 KNO3 NaNO2 mixture (assuming a delta_k of ~300) 53.356955169699994 MJ/liter for something like CaCl2 45.5682%, MgCl2 54.4318% (Ionic halide, assuming a delta_k of ~1568) In the future I expect even higher delta_k for molten salts. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas#Specific_energy_content_and_energy_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas#Specific...
- VBprogrammer 5y ago
  > assuming a delta_k of ~1568 I think we can go ahead and rule that out as impractical given we're talking about temperatures which are high enough to melt steel.
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    > I think we can go ahead and rule that out as impractical given we're talking about temperatures which are high enough to melt steel. I don't think steel will be used as the only form of confinement (certain kinds of ceramics come to mind can handle it now[0]), so agree to dissagree. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_ceramics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_ceramic...

CyberDildonics 5y ago

To be clear, you think that shipping molten salt to the other side of the world so that it can make steam to make electricity is viable because oil is shipped in tankers?

cinquemb 5y ago
> To be clear, you think that shipping molten salt to the other side of the world so that it can make steam to make electricity is viable because oil is shipped in tankers? Yes, if needed ("to the other side of the world" could very well mean from AU to SG, and not USA to SG [although that happens now in some cases to meet demand]). LNG and CL are shipped across the world so that it can make steam to make electricity now (as well as for heating). I can imagine it might be hard for some to fathom that doing it this way may work out better at scale than trying to build CSP plants in regions with low irradiance/ limited land availability/etc.
- CyberDildonics 5y ago
  All the person you replied to said was that they live in a region without sun, you are the one that took this into the territory of shipping molten salt for some reason. There are plenty of places that don't have much sun that are already connected to places that do. They are are connected by copper wires. There is no universe where trying to ship molten salt and keep it hot so it can turn water into steam is viable. Oil doesn't rely on heat gradients and doesn't lose its energy when put in a tank for a week. A copper cable carries electricity indefinitely. Also remember that everywhere already has electricity from somewhere. Solar generation is not shipping from one place to another far away, it is offsetting power to somewhere in between.
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    > All the person you replied to said was that they live in a region without sun, you are the one that took this into the territory of shipping molten salt for some reason. Because it is an option, just like it is an option for those to place a bunch of PV down and not bother with storage costs for that. Some options will work for some and not for others. And electricity needs to come from some source, ideally one that can provide more than +4hs and affordably. > A copper cable carries electricity indefinitely. All fields fall with distance from the source… shipping a source (like LNG, CL, and perhaps MS in the future) around to local nodes where it can be delivered with copper cables (after burning and combustion) is not beyond current logistics (and nor is factoring evaporation losses with LNG now). > There are plenty of places that don't have much sun that are already connected to places that do. They are are connected by copper wires. Right, tell that to every country that still imports hydrocarbons to burn for electricity/heat… > There is no universe where trying to ship molten salt and keep it hot so it can turn water into steam is viable. Oil doesn't rely on heat gradients and doesn't lose its energy when put in a tank for a week. I'm pretty sure that it will eventually be possible to have vacuum storage to keep it hot for longer than 17.5 hours with enough delta_k above freezing to provide a predictable amount of energy, so saying "There is no universe" would only apply to those like yourself who deem it beyond the realm of reason (which many things in this world tend to be for those who have walked it, thankfully progress isn't limited by such people in the long run). Interesting that the notion of a multiverse you appeal to with "There is no universe" seems more realistic than the above… > Solar generation is not shipping from one place to another far away, it is offsetting power to somewhere in between. Solar collection is when you need to think about the infrastructure and the surface area needed if you want to do it on a large scale; perhaps beyond realm possibility of what some deem needed for any place in particular…