5 ms·

Isn't that a chicken and egg problem though? The question is how do you bootstrap?

chongli 5y ago
The best way to bootstrap language adoption is to get a big tech company to push it. Java (Sun, Oracle, Google Android), C# (Microsoft), JavaScript (all browser vendors, Facebook React), Rust (Mozilla/Microsoft), Swift (Apple), Go (Google). Most of the popular languages are backed by one or more large tech companies. This gives managers the confidence to adopt them without reservation. It's the old "nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM" line, broadened.
- vindarel 5y ago
  At least now we have a list of companies not to be ashamed of: https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies/ https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies/ There are big names and big players. Now to see one pushing CL is another topic.
- dnautics 5y ago
  Then there's python. Ruby (currently waning in popularity, but we are talking about bootstrapping popularity), php (well fb is a major company but php was popular long before that), perl, not to mention C and C++. These languages have all at one point been "top" languages (moreso than swift, anyways).
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    The C comparison is particularly apt considering that C is newer than lisp.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Came with a free beer operating system.
  - chongli 5y ago
    Well, big tech backing is a sufficient condition for popularity, but not a necessary one. If you're looking for necessary conditions then that's a far more difficult question. Why do other things (books, songs, movies, games) become popular? Some things just go viral for whatever reason and it's very difficult to explain why, even after the fact. Like trying to predict where lightning will strike next.
    - dnautics 5y ago
      Big tech backing is no where near sufficient. Dart almost died (and the jury is still out). Facebook created a statically typed erlang, and I think that one is already dead, not a year after it was supposed to be announced
      - Zababa 5y ago
        The usual response is that Dart wasn't really backed by Google in general but just a few people on and around the Dart team.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Python - Zope, and all the companies Guido worked at Ruby - Rails made it happen PHP - Perl without CGI hurdles, and FB really C and C++ - AT&T, UNIX, Apple, IBM, Microsoft, Borland, CORBA
    - dnautics 5y ago
      Not sure about c, c++ Those corporate backings happened WAY after they got popular. Rails is not a corporation.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        How do you do UNIX without C or C++? Rails was made by a corporation. Radar blips in adoption is not being popular.
- pfdietz 5y ago
  There's some internal uptake of Common Lisp inside Google. Legacy of the ITA Software acquisition? One the significant maintainers of SBCL is at Google.
lolinder 5y ago
It's a harder problem when the language is unopinionated. It's easy to bootstrap productivity when everyone is already on the same page about how you write code in this language. Whether it's "OO" or "pythonic", having clear opinions that are baked into the language and shared across the industry means anyone can become productive quickly in a new code base. The problem that lisp has is that its very expressivity means that most lisp programs are written in their own custom DSL. This is exactly what people love about it but makes knowledge transfer between organizations hard.
- reikonomusha 5y ago
  Most Lisp programs are not written in their own DSL. Programming teams can be opinionated. Just someone with authority needs to write down the opinions. Common Lisp in particular can be pretty opinionated if everybody shares the same configuration of SLIME and Emacs. There are a few policy rules atop that really make code style consistent and watertight. But, unlike Go, it’s not “for free” with a canonical tool.
  - pfdietz 5y ago
    > Most Lisp programs are not written in their own DSL. Well, except for hu.dwim packages. Pesky Hungarian Common Lisp. :)

The best way to bootstrap language adoption is to get a big tech company to push it. Java (Sun, Oracle, Google Android), C# (Microsoft), JavaScript (all browser vendors, Facebook React), Rust (Mozilla/Microsoft), Swift (Apple), Go (Google). Most of the popular languages are backed by one or more large tech companies. This gives managers the confidence to adopt them without reservation. It's the old "nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM" line, broadened.

vindarel 5y ago
At least now we have a list of companies not to be ashamed of: https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies/ https://github.com/azzamsa/awesome-lisp-companies/ There are big names and big players. Now to see one pushing CL is another topic.
dnautics 5y ago
Then there's python. Ruby (currently waning in popularity, but we are talking about bootstrapping popularity), php (well fb is a major company but php was popular long before that), perl, not to mention C and C++. These languages have all at one point been "top" languages (moreso than swift, anyways).
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  The C comparison is particularly apt considering that C is newer than lisp.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Came with a free beer operating system.
- chongli 5y ago
  Well, big tech backing is a sufficient condition for popularity, but not a necessary one. If you're looking for necessary conditions then that's a far more difficult question. Why do other things (books, songs, movies, games) become popular? Some things just go viral for whatever reason and it's very difficult to explain why, even after the fact. Like trying to predict where lightning will strike next.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    Big tech backing is no where near sufficient. Dart almost died (and the jury is still out). Facebook created a statically typed erlang, and I think that one is already dead, not a year after it was supposed to be announced
    - Zababa 5y ago
      The usual response is that Dart wasn't really backed by Google in general but just a few people on and around the Dart team.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Python - Zope, and all the companies Guido worked at Ruby - Rails made it happen PHP - Perl without CGI hurdles, and FB really C and C++ - AT&T, UNIX, Apple, IBM, Microsoft, Borland, CORBA
  - dnautics 5y ago
    Not sure about c, c++ Those corporate backings happened WAY after they got popular. Rails is not a corporation.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      How do you do UNIX without C or C++? Rails was made by a corporation. Radar blips in adoption is not being popular.
pfdietz 5y ago
There's some internal uptake of Common Lisp inside Google. Legacy of the ITA Software acquisition? One the significant maintainers of SBCL is at Google.

lolinder 5y ago

It's a harder problem when the language is unopinionated. It's easy to bootstrap productivity when everyone is already on the same page about how you write code in this language. Whether it's "OO" or "pythonic", having clear opinions that are baked into the language and shared across the industry means anyone can become productive quickly in a new code base. The problem that lisp has is that its very expressivity means that most lisp programs are written in their own custom DSL. This is exactly what people love about it but makes knowledge transfer between organizations hard.

reikonomusha 5y ago
Most Lisp programs are not written in their own DSL. Programming teams can be opinionated. Just someone with authority needs to write down the opinions. Common Lisp in particular can be pretty opinionated if everybody shares the same configuration of SLIME and Emacs. There are a few policy rules atop that really make code style consistent and watertight. But, unlike Go, it’s not “for free” with a canonical tool.
- pfdietz 5y ago
  > Most Lisp programs are not written in their own DSL. Well, except for hu.dwim packages. Pesky Hungarian Common Lisp. :)