6 ms·

A personal story of treating social anxiety with 5-MeO-DMT (2016)

55 points by pmoriarty 5y ago

parafactual 5y ago
> He considered himself a logical rationalist with a self-described “zero tolerance for woo-woo,” so when his search for social anxiety treatment lead him to a psychospiritual retreat center in Mexico, referred to him by Psychedelic Times, he felt completely out of his element. I don't really understand how these things are connected.
- DubiousPusher 5y ago
  Because currently, psychadelics as a treatment for mental illness and neuroses are on about as firm of ground as cough medicine and chiropractic. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11045895/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11045895/ That is not to say we don't definitively know they do not work. We just dont know if they do anything or not. There is promising preliminary research but a lot of that research is coming out of a community that appears prone to some serious motivated reasoning. And there is a small cultural movement brewing that seeks to promote them despite our current ignorance. Proponents have made a mad dash to dump them into alt med toolbox to sit alongside acupuncture, cupping, ear candling, essential oils, etc. Edit: Don't get me wrong. I really hope these do work as the current standards of care for most mental illness are terribly flawed. Lithium for example is amazing but it has horrible side effects, destroys your organs and for many eventually stops working. Abilify has saved a lot of people's lives but when you're on it, a lot of times you just fucking want to die. It would be great to move beyond SSRIs, mood stabilizers and antipsychotics.
  - sterlind 5y ago
    MDMA successfully completed Phase III trials for PTSD: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03537014 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03537014 results here: https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/phase-3-trial-of-mdma-therapy-for-ptsd-finds-excellent-results-safety-record https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/phase-3-trial-of-mdma-the... Psilocybin can provide peace to terminally ill patients: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367557/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367557/ and it's in Phase II trials for major depressive disorder: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866174 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866174 and already has successful results in a small cohort, as published in JAMA Psychiatry: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2772630 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... hell, ketamine is FDA approved for depression: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-new-nasal-spray-medication-treatment-resistant-depression-available-only-certified https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...
    - DubiousPusher 5y ago
      > MDMA successfully completed Phase III trials for PTSD: Cool. I look forward to seeing how it performs in long term practice. > Psilocybin can provide peace to terminally ill patients: Looks promising, though that is a single study with a small sample size. > and it's in Phase II trials for major depressive disorder: Again, compelling but small sample size > hell, ketamine is FDA approved for depression This approval is based on self reported symptom data from phase III trials and currently is backed up with any extrinsic measurements such as reduced suicide. It's not nothing but it's not a slam dunk yet. Again, it's all very preliminary though it looks promising. I don't see any evidence to suggest it will become the standard of care soon but it may in the future. We just have to wait and see.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "That is not to say we don't definitively know they do not work. We just dont know if they do anything or not. There is promising preliminary research but a lot of that research is coming out of a community that appears prone to some serious motivated reasoning." It's not just preliminary research. At the time LSD was banned there were thousands of research papers on it, and I've read that it was the most widely studied psychoactive substance on the planet. The research that's come out more recently about psychedelics has largely just confirmed what was already known about them, and what has become crystal clear is that they're actually far more effective for some very severe mental illnesses (like treatment-resistant depression and PTSD) than any other medication or therapy in existence.
  - parafactual 5y ago
    That's fair. I just sometimes get the sense that people equate being "logical" to being very hardheaded and skeptical, only preferring well-established solutions. There is nothing inherently illogical about trying experimental approaches; in many cases if they don't work you can just move on. This isn't exactly that, though.
- Zealotux 5y ago
  I'm currently exploring similar options and I'd also describe myself as a "logical rationalist with zero tolerance for woo-woo”. The thing is: a lot of these psychedelic retreats are wrapped with strong spiritual culture. I'm torn on this, on one end I noticed retreats in Northern Europe usually have a more "scientific" approach than, let's say, similar retreats in Peru such as Ayahuasca which is rooted in shamanism. I believe both approaches are valuable, but it's clear that a "rational mind" would be out of its element at first.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    As someone who started out as a die-hard atheist materialist, who mellowed out and became much more open to "spirituality" and religion (when they're constructively positive and tolerant rather than dogmatic, intolerant, close-minded, and violent), I've started to develop an allergic reaction to the recent shamanism craze. James Oroc, in another article on the same site about underground 5-MeO facilitators[1], summarized some objections which I also share: "A lot of these practitioners like to take the tail hit on the end of the pipe because they believe if they are in tune with you, they are influencing your 5-MeO-DMT experience. I would say for one, if you've had a true 5-MeO release your experience is almost un-influenceable. Music can affect it and touch can bring you back a little bit, but the whole point is for your consciousness to go and for your body to be safe and undisturbed. I actually think the best practitioner is a licensed nurse who can put you in the recovery position. Any practitioner who would actually mess with your body in any way while your consciousness is out surfing the Akashic field, that's unethical in my opinion. And that's a common theme among all these practitioners- they all like to get really involved with your experience. So that's going to be the next major thing I write about: my ideas on the importance of a neutral container. "I'm actually a little irritated at the moment, the way the whole movement has sort of been swept up by the New Agers and falling back into this kind of cultism. Because there was a moment when Burning Man and psychedelic culture were actually breaking free of that, and heading into a much more William Gibson punk-anarchist kind of reality. That's still mixed in there, but I feel like we keep getting pulled back into this New Age bullshit. To me, the toad shamans are a classic example of that." For more examples of the harm some of these "shamanic" approaches can cause see: [2] [1] - https://psychedelictimes.com/underground-5-meo-dmt-facilitators-james-oroc/ https://psychedelictimes.com/underground-5-meo-dmt-facilitat... [2] - https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872 https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872
pmoriarty 5y ago
For anyone considering trying this, I strongly recommend: - informing yourself as much as possible (and then some) about this substance[1][2] - not doing this alone - reading and following the guidelines of The Conclave[3] - very carefully vetting the people you're entrusting your safety to[4][5][6][7] [1] - https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/5-meo-dmt https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/5-meo-dmt [2] - https://erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt.shtml https://erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt.shtml [3] - https://theconclave.info/ https://theconclave.info/ [4] - https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872 https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872 [5] - https://entheonation.com/blog/death-fraud-octavio-rettig-gerry-sandoval/ https://entheonation.com/blog/death-fraud-octavio-rettig-ger... [6] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsSN4p1cLrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsSN4p1cLrM [7] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQctOMSmBuk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQctOMSmBuk
- perardi 5y ago
  - not doing this alone - very carefully vetting the people you're entrusting your safety to Agreed, strongly. Set and setting are important for psychedelics. They should ideally be taken in a comfortable environment with people you trust…and hopefully they’re not tripping as well. Or at least, they have experience. The first time I took LSD was by myself. That was…perhaps not the best idea. It turned out fine, but whoo, it was a lot.
  - jahnu 5y ago
    Also just want to emphasize how correct this is. And yeah wow on your own the first time. Damn. I was with 2 others taking and 2 people not to guide in a comfortable environment and it was a lot even then. It's just an incomparable experience and while bad trips are actually very very rare and you should not worry about them if you've prepared everything else right, the experience is still just.. well.. wow!
    - loves_mangoes 5y ago
      I've always tripped alone, as an introvert, and I love having the whole space to myself and just having a good time without worrying about other people too much Agree with all the above, but I'd also emphasize dosage. I think I remember a study that showed the risk of people having a bad reaction is very clearly correlated to taking too much. Which should be pretty obvious. Start slow! You can always take more.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Interesting story, but as always it’s important to consider the source. These results shouldn’t be interpreted as typical or average. 5-MeO-DMT isn’t extraordinarily rare or hard to obtain, but stories of people turning their entire lives and psychology around for the better after a single dose aren’t common. Even the subject recommends against self experimentation, owing much of his outcome to the overall experience and ritual itself. He suggests he was skeptical, but skeptics don’t get on an airplane and travel to a destination to consume psychedelics under the guise of self-healing. The placebo effect plays a strong role in many of these outcomes, with the jarring experience of taking a psychedelic and having reality dissolve act as a sort of super-place that signals that whatever experience was had was noteworthy in a supernatural way. That sort of super-placebo effect doesn’t only amplify positive thoughts, though. Any psychedelic guide will emphasize “set and setting” as important because it’s well-known that a negative set and setting can trigger a harmful trip which can exacerbate pre-existing anxieties and negative ideas rather than making them disappear as this single anecdote would suggest. More realistically, “set and setting” had become a code phrase for post-rationalizing bad trips as being the fault of the user, not the drug, as relatively little guidance is provided about what constitutes proper set and setting. Instead, negative trips are hand-waved away as problems with “set and setting” as a way to vindicate the drug itself. In more typical real-world experiences, life changing results like this aren’t typical. Some users report a sort of afterglow effect, but it often fades in a matter of days or weeks. This leaves some of those users chasing additional doses or wondering what they’ve done wrong. On the other end of the spectrum, psychedelic experiences can and do trigger long lasting negative affect, or even unmask latent mental illness. Again, it’s not uncommon for these to be hand-waved away as pre-existing underlying conditions or improper set and setting, but it’s important to know that negative outcomes or exacerbations of mental illness are a very real possibility. Psychedelics are an interesting research topic, but we need to be honest and realistic that these aren’t hidden miracle cures that will wipe away anxiety and change everyone’s lives for the better after just one dose.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  > stories of people turning their entire lives and psychology around for the better after a single dose aren’t common This story itself is not about someone turning his entire life around after a single session. As the author writes: "Ironically, my first visit to the clinic didn't really address my social anxiety directly, as there was a lot more fundamental stuff that I had to work through. I've been back twice now..."
DantesKite 5y ago
Lovely article. Love how simple it was to read. So many times, authors get caught wasting time uselessly describing everything around them. Really cut to the meat quick and fast. > This isn’t something I feel like people should be experimenting with on their own. Having that envelope, having that support mechanism, is very important. I believe the energy in the room contributes to an experience. Search out people that are knowledgeable and really have experience with these things. The integration work goes hand in hand with the actual psychedelic journeys. Having a psychedelic experience without anyone knowledgeable to help you unravel it probably wouldn’t be productive in a lot of cases. Find competent people to guide you.
ramesh31 5y ago
You don't need to fly to Mexico and smoke toad venom to trip on DMT. It's very easily produced with no special equipment or skills from simple precursor materials that are readily available and completely legal to buy online in the US. Not that I would know.
obedm 5y ago
I can't take an article seriously when it's published under a pseudonym, by the website itself. It could just be marketing for all I know. And it most likely is.
- DubiousPusher 5y ago
  I think this is a fair criticism. Delivered perhaps a bit acerbically.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    As somebody who struggles with tact lately, would you mind sharing a kinder way to phrase the above while also being factually correct? I used to be good with people, but somewhere along the way I became a jerk. Any tools in my tool belt would be appreciated.
    - echlebek 5y ago
      Put yourself in the shoes of the person you're talking to, and try to understand how you are coming across. How would you feel if you were them?
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  Psychedelic posts get a free pass from the usual criticisms on HN for some reason. This is a blatant promotional article for a mystical cure associated with a sponsor of the website it’s posted on (the article admits they referred him to the retreat center, a subtle invitation to other readers to also reach out to get similar referrals to this miracle cure). Replace psychedelics with any other substance and the comment section would be full of criticisms about this being an n=1 anecdote and the obvious conflict of interest with the source.
elevenoh 5y ago
Psychedelics have been quite beneficial for my social anxiety as well. I once took mdma, went to a random toastmasters meetup solo, and gave two presentations. Twas effective in reframing my relationship to social anxiety to a non-trivial degree.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  How long was the effect for?
  - elevenoh 5y ago
    I'm not sure as this single event was simply a strong - even pivotal - step in the right direction. I now have remarkably low social anxiety. Objectively: I approach unfamiliar groups, women etc. in ways that baffle others I'm with.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  You went to a Toastmaster’s meetup on MDMA? That’s in now way comparable to having treated your social anxiety. Recreational drugs obviously produce short-lived mental changes.
  - loves_mangoes 5y ago
    When he says reframing his relashionship with soxial anxiety, I don't think he just means being drunk at the time. Social anxiety is an opinion you have of yourself. That can change. Or at least, you can decide how you feel about it.
  - warent 5y ago
    Few people are willing to put in the long hard work required for many things including mental health. Instant gratification and quick fixes are very popular, and I'm not convinced of it being a long term solution. It's like being challenged to climb a mountain but we just take a helicopter up instead. Sure we get to the top and see the view, but we still didn't learn to climb it. The unshakable personal growth is missed, and there will be many future mountains with the same challenges. Do the real work, find a good psychologist, build a relationship, and the healing can be life changing on levels you only dream of. It took me about 3 years(!) before I finally got brave enough to truly open up to my therapist which finally lead to identifying that I have OCD. That has been an enormous mental burden lifted from my psyche. The journey was well worth the milestone, and it's just the start of the work.
daxuak 5y ago
> ... lead him to a psychospiritual retreat center in Mexico, referred to him by Psychedelic Times, he felt completely out of his element. Just a friendly reminder that this article is directly affiliated with the website it was posted on.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  And this publication profits off of promoting psychedelics and getting sponsorships from these psychedelic retreat centers. This article is one step away from those spammy YouTube ads that promise to treat medical illnesses with secret discoveries. Click here to learn more… The fact that he was a reader of Psychedlic Times to the point of using them to identify treatment centers suggests this isn’t your average anxiety sufferer. This person was a true believer in psychedelics from the start, which is a huge variable in an outcome know to be prone to significant placebo effect.
kulig 5y ago
Jeez. Be careful with this stuff. It could also destroy your life.
- loves_mangoes 5y ago
  Seems like you mean well, but you're all shadowbanned. Can't downvote someone calling for safety, as much as I love the idea of psychedelics helping people.
- vfclists 5y ago
  So could a Covid vaccination
wcoenen 5y ago
If you find yourself making Skype calls to a Mexican psycho-spiritual treatment center to discuss your condition, and then go on a trip there, you do not have "debilitating social anxiety". "debilitating social anxiety" is when you pace through your living room for 15 minutes to work up the courage to make a call to order pizza. And then afterwards, ruminate on every awkward detail in that one minute conversation, forever.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- antiterra 5y ago
  I don’t think it helps to gatekeep like this. I can order a pizza and travel to foreign countries alone, but I have nearly been fired for my inability to initiate friendly conversation with leaders of other teams at work. I have agonized for 30 minutes to write three sentences for friendly ‘let’s have coffee’ emails. Maybe that’s not debilitating per se, but with the right timing it could have destroyed my career, ability to afford living expenses etc.
- loves_mangoes 5y ago
  "debilitating social anxiety" is when you feel that way.
- agency 5y ago
  They describe having anxiety attacks on the way to work. That sounds serious by any reasonable definition. Who made you the arbiter of social anxiety?
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  People have good days and bad days
renewiltord 5y ago
People are always making a big damn deal about psychedelics and I’ve been doing shrooms and LSD for like years and it’s been fine. I’ve got a bit of a feeling it’s people trying to make it more “we self regulate” than anything. Personally, I enjoy them at festivals too as a party drug and mix it up with MDMA and alcohol and it’s great. This stuff isn’t even addictive. I stopped for a period of years to test myself.
- loves_mangoes 5y ago
  >I stopped for a period of years to test myself. I'm glad you did so I don't have to :D >I’ve got a bit of a feeling it’s people trying to make it more “we self regulate” than anything. I think if it's genuinely helping people, that's all that matters to me. Everything can't be a big deal to everyone. LSD works just fine as a party drug. Also works great if you want to use to write 600 lines of harsh self reflection and make a change in your life. I trust people to tell me how they're feeling about it, for the most parts. It definitely doesn't feel like homeopathics or a placebo, but we'll see what the studies come out saying...
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    Oh I have no problem with people using it however they want. It’s just when they’re all about “Don’t do it except in these constrained circumstances” that I’m annoyed. After I was experienced in some drug usage I realized that listening to these people was causing me some anxiety on trying new drugs because they were all like “BE CAREFUL! This is dangerous!” Without that anxiety, my experiences were great! I had a blast! Bunch of fear-mongering. Mongers of fear.
newbie789 5y ago
I found this article kind of odd, personally. A million years ago I did quite a bit of 5-MeO-DMT and compared to N,N-DMT (or many other tryptamines) I found it to be… kind of lackluster. I wasn’t aware that there was such a large community that use this substance for spiritual or self improvement purposes. Kudos to the people that are getting value out of this!
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  Could you go in to more detail about what it was like for you and why you found it lackluster? I'm very interested.
  - newbie789 5y ago
    N,N-DMT was like being transported into another dimension full of fractal elves and spheres etc. Literally it was the stereotype that you read about anywhere. It was incredibly entertaining and incredibly meaningful. 5-MeO-DMT also included teleporting into another dimension, it’s just that the dimension is a big empty void. It’s in no way bad or unenjoyable, but I found it to lack substance. It’s been a really, really long time since I’ve done any of this stuff and my memory might not be perfect.
temp0826 5y ago
The title says 5-meo-dmt but article says bufo (from the toad). I find pure 5-meo much nicer -- it can be safely insulfated (though it does burn quite a bit), which makes more a much smoother come-up. My last experience started with insulfation, then smoked a tiny amount after about 15 minutes which catapulted me. (Won't go into details because I can't...it really is an ineffable experience). Also no harm to endangered toads, which is a plus.
- jahnu 5y ago
  Have you tried LSD? Does it compare?
  - temp0826 5y ago
    It does not compare at all. I'm not sure that you could get to that same place of full release/disconnection even with a massive dose of lsd.
jazzyjackson 5y ago
Leave toads alone 5 Meo DMT can be synthesized, but people like to do the “natural” thing. See “Hamilton’s Pharmacopoeia” s03e01, he interviews Albert Most, the first person to smoke toad venom, and then demonstrates the synthesis in a lab, really entertaining stuff. I think the episode is not up for free, HBO and Vice have it. You can read about it here tho https://www.forbes.com/sites/amandasiebert/2021/01/08/hamilton-morris-on-mistakes-5-meo-dmt-and-preserving-psychedelic-toads/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/amandasiebert/2021/01/08/hamilt...
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  Here's the episode: [1] I am not convinced Albert Most (the pseudonym of Ken Nelson[2]) was the first to use 5-MeO-DMT. Most/Nelson published his pamphlet in 1983, while more than 10 years earlier 5-MeO-DMT was apparently used by the Church of the Tree of Life and sold by the Inner Center at Hermosa Beach:[3][4][5][6][7] "The San Francisco-based Church of the Tree of Life aimed to be to the still-legal psychoactive substances what the Native American Church was for peyote. Incorporated in 1971 by life-extension expert John Mann, it existed largely as a legal entity to protect the use of the drugs mentioned in Legal Highs. If any of these materials became illegal, it was reasoned, a religious-use exemption for Church members could be grandfathered in with the new statutes, much as the peyote exemption had been for American Indians." "One of the Church's prime sacramental sources was the Inner Center of Hermosa Beach. A popular item in its mail-order catalog was 5-MeO-DMT, a legal variant of the short-acting tryptamine DMT, which produced a brief yet powerful psychedelic trip. The chemical was sprayed onto parsley or oregano leaves, which would then be smoked like marijuana to produce an intense, almost otherworldly state." According to [7]: "...a 1973 booklet Legal Highs: A Concise Encyclopedia of Legal Herbs and Chemicals with Psychoactive Properties included 5-MeO-DMT, noting that "the Church of the Tree of Life has declared as its religious sacraments most substances in this book." "Since the first scientific paper that publicized the fact that the Bufo Alvarius was a walking 5-MeO-DMT factory was not widely circulated until 1967, it is quite possible that smoking toad venom is a completely modern invention. It has also been pointed out to me that our modern civilization is probably the first one which has realized that it is possible to smoke DMT or 5-MeO-DMT - until this time we have either taken it as a snuff, a potion, or, most recently, injecting it. Whatever the case, the Legal Highs booklet in 1973 now listed the Karma Kem Ko. in Yatesboro, PA and Terrestrial Materials in San Francisco, CA as suppliers of 5-MeO-DMT. "In a 1977 Head magazine article titled "DMT" authors Jeremy Bigwood and Jonathan Ott noted that 5-MeO-DMT "has been sold on the illicit market," they also commented that it was not a controlled substance. Nevertheless, Bigwood and Ott did little to promote the drug, when they quoted a description from M.V. Smith's 1976 book Psychedelic Chemistry that described the effects of 5-MeO-DMT as being similar to "having a large elephant sit on one's head," and they concluded by stating that they felt the drug "has little recreational value." (The exact quote from Smith is, "The effects of 5-methoxy-DMT are unpleasant for most people (smoking it gives me nausea plus the feeling that I'm being sat on by an elephant)" (Smith 1981).)* "The 1978 High Times Encyclopedia of Recreational Drugs remarks that 5-MeO-DMT "has been synthesized and was occasionally available in the California underground market a few years ago. The effects are practically identical to laboratory DMT available in the 1960s." So human use of 5-MeO-DMT seems to go back to at least the early 1970's, though it's not clear who its first user was. It would be great to interview all the different people and whoever ran the companies mentioned in the above quotes about this. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoE7u6mgS7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoE7u6mgS7E [2] - https://www.psychedelictoadofthesonorandesert.com/preface https://www.psychedelictoadofthesonorandesert.com/preface [3] - http://califias.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-church-of-tree-of-life.html http://califias.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-church-of-tree-of-l... [4] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Tree_of_Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Tree_of_Life [5] - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/002204268801800212 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/002204268801800... [6] - http://www.textfiles.com/drugs/addresse http://www.textfiles.com/drugs/addresse [7] - http://www.dmtsite.com/5-meo-dmt/information/modern_usage.html http://www.dmtsite.com/5-meo-dmt/information/modern_usage.ht...
senjin 5y ago
Anyone know what the nuclear option would be for ADHD?

55 points by pmoriarty 5y ago

> He considered himself a logical rationalist with a self-described “zero tolerance for woo-woo,” so when his search for social anxiety treatment lead him to a psychospiritual retreat center in Mexico, referred to him by Psychedelic Times, he felt completely out of his element. I don't really understand how these things are connected.

DubiousPusher 5y ago
Because currently, psychadelics as a treatment for mental illness and neuroses are on about as firm of ground as cough medicine and chiropractic. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11045895/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11045895/ That is not to say we don't definitively know they do not work. We just dont know if they do anything or not. There is promising preliminary research but a lot of that research is coming out of a community that appears prone to some serious motivated reasoning. And there is a small cultural movement brewing that seeks to promote them despite our current ignorance. Proponents have made a mad dash to dump them into alt med toolbox to sit alongside acupuncture, cupping, ear candling, essential oils, etc. Edit: Don't get me wrong. I really hope these do work as the current standards of care for most mental illness are terribly flawed. Lithium for example is amazing but it has horrible side effects, destroys your organs and for many eventually stops working. Abilify has saved a lot of people's lives but when you're on it, a lot of times you just fucking want to die. It would be great to move beyond SSRIs, mood stabilizers and antipsychotics.
- sterlind 5y ago
  MDMA successfully completed Phase III trials for PTSD: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03537014 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03537014 results here: https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/phase-3-trial-of-mdma-therapy-for-ptsd-finds-excellent-results-safety-record https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/phase-3-trial-of-mdma-the... Psilocybin can provide peace to terminally ill patients: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367557/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367557/ and it's in Phase II trials for major depressive disorder: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866174 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03866174 and already has successful results in a small cohort, as published in JAMA Psychiatry: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2772630 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... hell, ketamine is FDA approved for depression: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-new-nasal-spray-medication-treatment-resistant-depression-available-only-certified https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...
  - DubiousPusher 5y ago
    > MDMA successfully completed Phase III trials for PTSD: Cool. I look forward to seeing how it performs in long term practice. > Psilocybin can provide peace to terminally ill patients: Looks promising, though that is a single study with a small sample size. > and it's in Phase II trials for major depressive disorder: Again, compelling but small sample size > hell, ketamine is FDA approved for depression This approval is based on self reported symptom data from phase III trials and currently is backed up with any extrinsic measurements such as reduced suicide. It's not nothing but it's not a slam dunk yet. Again, it's all very preliminary though it looks promising. I don't see any evidence to suggest it will become the standard of care soon but it may in the future. We just have to wait and see.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "That is not to say we don't definitively know they do not work. We just dont know if they do anything or not. There is promising preliminary research but a lot of that research is coming out of a community that appears prone to some serious motivated reasoning." It's not just preliminary research. At the time LSD was banned there were thousands of research papers on it, and I've read that it was the most widely studied psychoactive substance on the planet. The research that's come out more recently about psychedelics has largely just confirmed what was already known about them, and what has become crystal clear is that they're actually far more effective for some very severe mental illnesses (like treatment-resistant depression and PTSD) than any other medication or therapy in existence.
- parafactual 5y ago
  That's fair. I just sometimes get the sense that people equate being "logical" to being very hardheaded and skeptical, only preferring well-established solutions. There is nothing inherently illogical about trying experimental approaches; in many cases if they don't work you can just move on. This isn't exactly that, though.
Zealotux 5y ago
I'm currently exploring similar options and I'd also describe myself as a "logical rationalist with zero tolerance for woo-woo”. The thing is: a lot of these psychedelic retreats are wrapped with strong spiritual culture. I'm torn on this, on one end I noticed retreats in Northern Europe usually have a more "scientific" approach than, let's say, similar retreats in Peru such as Ayahuasca which is rooted in shamanism. I believe both approaches are valuable, but it's clear that a "rational mind" would be out of its element at first.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  As someone who started out as a die-hard atheist materialist, who mellowed out and became much more open to "spirituality" and religion (when they're constructively positive and tolerant rather than dogmatic, intolerant, close-minded, and violent), I've started to develop an allergic reaction to the recent shamanism craze. James Oroc, in another article on the same site about underground 5-MeO facilitators[1], summarized some objections which I also share: "A lot of these practitioners like to take the tail hit on the end of the pipe because they believe if they are in tune with you, they are influencing your 5-MeO-DMT experience. I would say for one, if you've had a true 5-MeO release your experience is almost un-influenceable. Music can affect it and touch can bring you back a little bit, but the whole point is for your consciousness to go and for your body to be safe and undisturbed. I actually think the best practitioner is a licensed nurse who can put you in the recovery position. Any practitioner who would actually mess with your body in any way while your consciousness is out surfing the Akashic field, that's unethical in my opinion. And that's a common theme among all these practitioners- they all like to get really involved with your experience. So that's going to be the next major thing I write about: my ideas on the importance of a neutral container. "I'm actually a little irritated at the moment, the way the whole movement has sort of been swept up by the New Agers and falling back into this kind of cultism. Because there was a moment when Burning Man and psychedelic culture were actually breaking free of that, and heading into a much more William Gibson punk-anarchist kind of reality. That's still mixed in there, but I feel like we keep getting pulled back into this New Age bullshit. To me, the toad shamans are a classic example of that." For more examples of the harm some of these "shamanic" approaches can cause see: [2] [1] - https://psychedelictimes.com/underground-5-meo-dmt-facilitators-james-oroc/ https://psychedelictimes.com/underground-5-meo-dmt-facilitat... [2] - https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872 https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872

pmoriarty 5y ago

For anyone considering trying this, I strongly recommend: - informing yourself as much as possible (and then some) about this substance[1][2] - not doing this alone - reading and following the guidelines of The Conclave[3] - very carefully vetting the people you're entrusting your safety to[4][5][6][7] [1] - https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/5-meo-dmt https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/5-meo-dmt [2] - https://erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt.shtml https://erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt.shtml [3] - https://theconclave.info/ https://theconclave.info/ [4] - https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872 https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872 [5] - https://entheonation.com/blog/death-fraud-octavio-rettig-gerry-sandoval/ https://entheonation.com/blog/death-fraud-octavio-rettig-ger... [6] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsSN4p1cLrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsSN4p1cLrM [7] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQctOMSmBuk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQctOMSmBuk

perardi 5y ago
- not doing this alone - very carefully vetting the people you're entrusting your safety to Agreed, strongly. Set and setting are important for psychedelics. They should ideally be taken in a comfortable environment with people you trust…and hopefully they’re not tripping as well. Or at least, they have experience. The first time I took LSD was by myself. That was…perhaps not the best idea. It turned out fine, but whoo, it was a lot.
- jahnu 5y ago
  Also just want to emphasize how correct this is. And yeah wow on your own the first time. Damn. I was with 2 others taking and 2 people not to guide in a comfortable environment and it was a lot even then. It's just an incomparable experience and while bad trips are actually very very rare and you should not worry about them if you've prepared everything else right, the experience is still just.. well.. wow!
  - loves_mangoes 5y ago
    I've always tripped alone, as an introvert, and I love having the whole space to myself and just having a good time without worrying about other people too much Agree with all the above, but I'd also emphasize dosage. I think I remember a study that showed the risk of people having a bad reaction is very clearly correlated to taking too much. Which should be pretty obvious. Start slow! You can always take more.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

Interesting story, but as always it’s important to consider the source. These results shouldn’t be interpreted as typical or average. 5-MeO-DMT isn’t extraordinarily rare or hard to obtain, but stories of people turning their entire lives and psychology around for the better after a single dose aren’t common. Even the subject recommends against self experimentation, owing much of his outcome to the overall experience and ritual itself. He suggests he was skeptical, but skeptics don’t get on an airplane and travel to a destination to consume psychedelics under the guise of self-healing. The placebo effect plays a strong role in many of these outcomes, with the jarring experience of taking a psychedelic and having reality dissolve act as a sort of super-place that signals that whatever experience was had was noteworthy in a supernatural way. That sort of super-placebo effect doesn’t only amplify positive thoughts, though. Any psychedelic guide will emphasize “set and setting” as important because it’s well-known that a negative set and setting can trigger a harmful trip which can exacerbate pre-existing anxieties and negative ideas rather than making them disappear as this single anecdote would suggest. More realistically, “set and setting” had become a code phrase for post-rationalizing bad trips as being the fault of the user, not the drug, as relatively little guidance is provided about what constitutes proper set and setting. Instead, negative trips are hand-waved away as problems with “set and setting” as a way to vindicate the drug itself. In more typical real-world experiences, life changing results like this aren’t typical. Some users report a sort of afterglow effect, but it often fades in a matter of days or weeks. This leaves some of those users chasing additional doses or wondering what they’ve done wrong. On the other end of the spectrum, psychedelic experiences can and do trigger long lasting negative affect, or even unmask latent mental illness. Again, it’s not uncommon for these to be hand-waved away as pre-existing underlying conditions or improper set and setting, but it’s important to know that negative outcomes or exacerbations of mental illness are a very real possibility. Psychedelics are an interesting research topic, but we need to be honest and realistic that these aren’t hidden miracle cures that will wipe away anxiety and change everyone’s lives for the better after just one dose.

pmoriarty 5y ago
> stories of people turning their entire lives and psychology around for the better after a single dose aren’t common This story itself is not about someone turning his entire life around after a single session. As the author writes: "Ironically, my first visit to the clinic didn't really address my social anxiety directly, as there was a lot more fundamental stuff that I had to work through. I've been back twice now..."

DantesKite 5y ago

Lovely article. Love how simple it was to read. So many times, authors get caught wasting time uselessly describing everything around them. Really cut to the meat quick and fast. > This isn’t something I feel like people should be experimenting with on their own. Having that envelope, having that support mechanism, is very important. I believe the energy in the room contributes to an experience. Search out people that are knowledgeable and really have experience with these things. The integration work goes hand in hand with the actual psychedelic journeys. Having a psychedelic experience without anyone knowledgeable to help you unravel it probably wouldn’t be productive in a lot of cases. Find competent people to guide you.

ramesh31 5y ago

You don't need to fly to Mexico and smoke toad venom to trip on DMT. It's very easily produced with no special equipment or skills from simple precursor materials that are readily available and completely legal to buy online in the US. Not that I would know.

obedm 5y ago

I can't take an article seriously when it's published under a pseudonym, by the website itself. It could just be marketing for all I know. And it most likely is.

DubiousPusher 5y ago
I think this is a fair criticism. Delivered perhaps a bit acerbically.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  As somebody who struggles with tact lately, would you mind sharing a kinder way to phrase the above while also being factually correct? I used to be good with people, but somewhere along the way I became a jerk. Any tools in my tool belt would be appreciated.
  - echlebek 5y ago
    Put yourself in the shoes of the person you're talking to, and try to understand how you are coming across. How would you feel if you were them?
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Psychedelic posts get a free pass from the usual criticisms on HN for some reason. This is a blatant promotional article for a mystical cure associated with a sponsor of the website it’s posted on (the article admits they referred him to the retreat center, a subtle invitation to other readers to also reach out to get similar referrals to this miracle cure). Replace psychedelics with any other substance and the comment section would be full of criticisms about this being an n=1 anecdote and the obvious conflict of interest with the source.

elevenoh 5y ago

Psychedelics have been quite beneficial for my social anxiety as well. I once took mdma, went to a random toastmasters meetup solo, and gave two presentations. Twas effective in reframing my relationship to social anxiety to a non-trivial degree.

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
How long was the effect for?
- elevenoh 5y ago
  I'm not sure as this single event was simply a strong - even pivotal - step in the right direction. I now have remarkably low social anxiety. Objectively: I approach unfamiliar groups, women etc. in ways that baffle others I'm with.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
You went to a Toastmaster’s meetup on MDMA? That’s in now way comparable to having treated your social anxiety. Recreational drugs obviously produce short-lived mental changes.
- loves_mangoes 5y ago
  When he says reframing his relashionship with soxial anxiety, I don't think he just means being drunk at the time. Social anxiety is an opinion you have of yourself. That can change. Or at least, you can decide how you feel about it.
- warent 5y ago
  Few people are willing to put in the long hard work required for many things including mental health. Instant gratification and quick fixes are very popular, and I'm not convinced of it being a long term solution. It's like being challenged to climb a mountain but we just take a helicopter up instead. Sure we get to the top and see the view, but we still didn't learn to climb it. The unshakable personal growth is missed, and there will be many future mountains with the same challenges. Do the real work, find a good psychologist, build a relationship, and the healing can be life changing on levels you only dream of. It took me about 3 years(!) before I finally got brave enough to truly open up to my therapist which finally lead to identifying that I have OCD. That has been an enormous mental burden lifted from my psyche. The journey was well worth the milestone, and it's just the start of the work.

daxuak 5y ago

> ... lead him to a psychospiritual retreat center in Mexico, referred to him by Psychedelic Times, he felt completely out of his element. Just a friendly reminder that this article is directly affiliated with the website it was posted on.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
And this publication profits off of promoting psychedelics and getting sponsorships from these psychedelic retreat centers. This article is one step away from those spammy YouTube ads that promise to treat medical illnesses with secret discoveries. Click here to learn more… The fact that he was a reader of Psychedlic Times to the point of using them to identify treatment centers suggests this isn’t your average anxiety sufferer. This person was a true believer in psychedelics from the start, which is a huge variable in an outcome know to be prone to significant placebo effect.

kulig 5y ago

Jeez. Be careful with this stuff. It could also destroy your life.

loves_mangoes 5y ago
Seems like you mean well, but you're all shadowbanned. Can't downvote someone calling for safety, as much as I love the idea of psychedelics helping people.
vfclists 5y ago
So could a Covid vaccination

wcoenen 5y ago

If you find yourself making Skype calls to a Mexican psycho-spiritual treatment center to discuss your condition, and then go on a trip there, you do not have "debilitating social anxiety". "debilitating social anxiety" is when you pace through your living room for 15 minutes to work up the courage to make a call to order pizza. And then afterwards, ruminate on every awkward detail in that one minute conversation, forever.

deleted 5y ago
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antiterra 5y ago
I don’t think it helps to gatekeep like this. I can order a pizza and travel to foreign countries alone, but I have nearly been fired for my inability to initiate friendly conversation with leaders of other teams at work. I have agonized for 30 minutes to write three sentences for friendly ‘let’s have coffee’ emails. Maybe that’s not debilitating per se, but with the right timing it could have destroyed my career, ability to afford living expenses etc.
loves_mangoes 5y ago
"debilitating social anxiety" is when you feel that way.
agency 5y ago
They describe having anxiety attacks on the way to work. That sounds serious by any reasonable definition. Who made you the arbiter of social anxiety?
jazzyjackson 5y ago
People have good days and bad days

renewiltord 5y ago

People are always making a big damn deal about psychedelics and I’ve been doing shrooms and LSD for like years and it’s been fine. I’ve got a bit of a feeling it’s people trying to make it more “we self regulate” than anything. Personally, I enjoy them at festivals too as a party drug and mix it up with MDMA and alcohol and it’s great. This stuff isn’t even addictive. I stopped for a period of years to test myself.

loves_mangoes 5y ago
>I stopped for a period of years to test myself. I'm glad you did so I don't have to :D >I’ve got a bit of a feeling it’s people trying to make it more “we self regulate” than anything. I think if it's genuinely helping people, that's all that matters to me. Everything can't be a big deal to everyone. LSD works just fine as a party drug. Also works great if you want to use to write 600 lines of harsh self reflection and make a change in your life. I trust people to tell me how they're feeling about it, for the most parts. It definitely doesn't feel like homeopathics or a placebo, but we'll see what the studies come out saying...
- renewiltord 5y ago
  Oh I have no problem with people using it however they want. It’s just when they’re all about “Don’t do it except in these constrained circumstances” that I’m annoyed. After I was experienced in some drug usage I realized that listening to these people was causing me some anxiety on trying new drugs because they were all like “BE CAREFUL! This is dangerous!” Without that anxiety, my experiences were great! I had a blast! Bunch of fear-mongering. Mongers of fear.

newbie789 5y ago

I found this article kind of odd, personally. A million years ago I did quite a bit of 5-MeO-DMT and compared to N,N-DMT (or many other tryptamines) I found it to be… kind of lackluster. I wasn’t aware that there was such a large community that use this substance for spiritual or self improvement purposes. Kudos to the people that are getting value out of this!

pmoriarty 5y ago
Could you go in to more detail about what it was like for you and why you found it lackluster? I'm very interested.
- newbie789 5y ago
  N,N-DMT was like being transported into another dimension full of fractal elves and spheres etc. Literally it was the stereotype that you read about anywhere. It was incredibly entertaining and incredibly meaningful. 5-MeO-DMT also included teleporting into another dimension, it’s just that the dimension is a big empty void. It’s in no way bad or unenjoyable, but I found it to lack substance. It’s been a really, really long time since I’ve done any of this stuff and my memory might not be perfect.

temp0826 5y ago

The title says 5-meo-dmt but article says bufo (from the toad). I find pure 5-meo much nicer -- it can be safely insulfated (though it does burn quite a bit), which makes more a much smoother come-up. My last experience started with insulfation, then smoked a tiny amount after about 15 minutes which catapulted me. (Won't go into details because I can't...it really is an ineffable experience). Also no harm to endangered toads, which is a plus.

jahnu 5y ago
Have you tried LSD? Does it compare?
- temp0826 5y ago
  It does not compare at all. I'm not sure that you could get to that same place of full release/disconnection even with a massive dose of lsd.

jazzyjackson 5y ago

Leave toads alone 5 Meo DMT can be synthesized, but people like to do the “natural” thing. See “Hamilton’s Pharmacopoeia” s03e01, he interviews Albert Most, the first person to smoke toad venom, and then demonstrates the synthesis in a lab, really entertaining stuff. I think the episode is not up for free, HBO and Vice have it. You can read about it here tho https://www.forbes.com/sites/amandasiebert/2021/01/08/hamilton-morris-on-mistakes-5-meo-dmt-and-preserving-psychedelic-toads/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/amandasiebert/2021/01/08/hamilt...

pmoriarty 5y ago
Here's the episode: [1] I am not convinced Albert Most (the pseudonym of Ken Nelson[2]) was the first to use 5-MeO-DMT. Most/Nelson published his pamphlet in 1983, while more than 10 years earlier 5-MeO-DMT was apparently used by the Church of the Tree of Life and sold by the Inner Center at Hermosa Beach:[3][4][5][6][7] "The San Francisco-based Church of the Tree of Life aimed to be to the still-legal psychoactive substances what the Native American Church was for peyote. Incorporated in 1971 by life-extension expert John Mann, it existed largely as a legal entity to protect the use of the drugs mentioned in Legal Highs. If any of these materials became illegal, it was reasoned, a religious-use exemption for Church members could be grandfathered in with the new statutes, much as the peyote exemption had been for American Indians." "One of the Church's prime sacramental sources was the Inner Center of Hermosa Beach. A popular item in its mail-order catalog was 5-MeO-DMT, a legal variant of the short-acting tryptamine DMT, which produced a brief yet powerful psychedelic trip. The chemical was sprayed onto parsley or oregano leaves, which would then be smoked like marijuana to produce an intense, almost otherworldly state." According to [7]: "...a 1973 booklet Legal Highs: A Concise Encyclopedia of Legal Herbs and Chemicals with Psychoactive Properties included 5-MeO-DMT, noting that "the Church of the Tree of Life has declared as its religious sacraments most substances in this book." "Since the first scientific paper that publicized the fact that the Bufo Alvarius was a walking 5-MeO-DMT factory was not widely circulated until 1967, it is quite possible that smoking toad venom is a completely modern invention. It has also been pointed out to me that our modern civilization is probably the first one which has realized that it is possible to smoke DMT or 5-MeO-DMT - until this time we have either taken it as a snuff, a potion, or, most recently, injecting it. Whatever the case, the Legal Highs booklet in 1973 now listed the Karma Kem Ko. in Yatesboro, PA and Terrestrial Materials in San Francisco, CA as suppliers of 5-MeO-DMT. "In a 1977 Head magazine article titled "DMT" authors Jeremy Bigwood and Jonathan Ott noted that 5-MeO-DMT "has been sold on the illicit market," they also commented that it was not a controlled substance. Nevertheless, Bigwood and Ott did little to promote the drug, when they quoted a description from M.V. Smith's 1976 book Psychedelic Chemistry that described the effects of 5-MeO-DMT as being similar to "having a large elephant sit on one's head," and they concluded by stating that they felt the drug "has little recreational value." (The exact quote from Smith is, "The effects of 5-methoxy-DMT are unpleasant for most people (smoking it gives me nausea plus the feeling that I'm being sat on by an elephant)" (Smith 1981).)* "The 1978 High Times Encyclopedia of Recreational Drugs remarks that 5-MeO-DMT "has been synthesized and was occasionally available in the California underground market a few years ago. The effects are practically identical to laboratory DMT available in the 1960s." So human use of 5-MeO-DMT seems to go back to at least the early 1970's, though it's not clear who its first user was. It would be great to interview all the different people and whoever ran the companies mentioned in the above quotes about this. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoE7u6mgS7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoE7u6mgS7E [2] - https://www.psychedelictoadofthesonorandesert.com/preface https://www.psychedelictoadofthesonorandesert.com/preface [3] - http://califias.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-church-of-tree-of-life.html http://califias.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-church-of-tree-of-l... [4] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Tree_of_Life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Tree_of_Life [5] - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/002204268801800212 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/002204268801800... [6] - http://www.textfiles.com/drugs/addresse http://www.textfiles.com/drugs/addresse [7] - http://www.dmtsite.com/5-meo-dmt/information/modern_usage.html http://www.dmtsite.com/5-meo-dmt/information/modern_usage.ht...

senjin 5y ago

Anyone know what the nuclear option would be for ADHD?