5 ms·

You can have a younger picture, you can remove older jobs on your resume to appear younger. It gets you the interview, you can pass the coding test but then ge

by rmason 5y ago

You can have a younger picture, you can remove older jobs on your resume to appear younger. It gets you the interview, you can pass the coding test but then get told that they don't think you're a 'cultural fit'. I think the underlying reason is when you have far more experience than your future boss they are intimidated by you.

trhway 5y ago
> It gets you the interview, you can pass the coding test but then get told that they don't think you're a 'cultural fit'. a recent AMZN innovation to optimize that process out - an explicitly stated max years of experience cap that thus effectively bars you even from applying (previous post with some replies https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27786601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27786601 ) You may be willing and qualified, yet because of age you can't even apply. Feels just nice.
- Tade0 5y ago
  How old is "old"? I'm 32, is my Lifeclock already red/black?
  - trhway 5y ago
    may be. What i saw was a 10 years cap, and otherwise the next level on the menu was SDE 5 (i.e. principal, expected to have publications, etc., and only rare individuals can make SDE5 coming from outside as i gathered from googling) which i can only wish you great luck passing the interview for. Note: it was a real unambiguous cap, explicitly stressed as the strict cap 2 times, not that typical "we're looking for 5-10 years experience", and it was made clear that for exceeding the cap - either apply for SDE5 or don't bother to apply at all.
    - hinoki 5y ago
      Maybe they were talking about an experience cap for hiring at a given (low) level? Which is also stupid, but since many companies (I have no experience with Amazon, but I do know Microsoft and Facebook will) “manage you out” if you don’t get promotions at a minimum rate, makes some kind of sense. BTW, SDE 5 isn’t an Amazon level. There is L5, which corresponds to SDE II, which is only one promotion from college hire. And there is Principal, which is L7. https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Google&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Google&track=Software...
  - blooalien 5y ago
    Oooo! Nice "Logan's Run" reference! You win this thread in my book. ;)
- pc86 5y ago
  This is just another one of your comments saying the same thing. And the top reply is a current employee saying it's not true. Do you actually have any proof about what you're asserting?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - trhway 5y ago
    i guess it is a recent development as i don't remember seeing that from AMZN recruiters before and thus those current employees may not experienced it when they were recruited. I think it is an outrageous borderline illegal practice worth mentioning in related public forums, as I think it may become a widely accepted practice if not called. If you think about it - i posted about multi-trillion dollar company with an army of lawyers what probably [IANAL] can be construed as libel if not true. Would i be posting it if i didn't have documentary support for it? ( AMZN has it on their email servers too so it isn't out if the blue for them)
    - WaitWaitWha 5y ago
      I am calling this horse pucky. I am going to throw my anecdotal feedback to counter your anecdote. I checked with amzn recruiter friends and they were all going "wha?"... Their current biggest problem is "getting someone who is 50% better then the hiring team". Cutting people with extensive experience would be counterproductive to this goal.
    - pc86 5y ago
      So you don't have any corroborating evidence, any sources, anything other than your word? You might as well be making it up. "Well I'd get in trouble if I'm wrong" isn't a good defense, especially on a pseudonymous forum where people post wrong information constantly. I think the odds of AMZN trawling through your comments to try and figure out who you are just to pursue libel charges are as close to zero as anything could be.
- _carbyau_ 5y ago
  Could you do something like: I have 1 year experience. I also happen to have 2, 3, 4... etc. In total I have 15 but that includes any lesser number of years too.
  - foldr 5y ago
    Going off on a bit of a tangent, this is a classical problem in linguistics. Is the literal meaning of "John has three cats" "John has exactly three cats" or "John has at least three cats"? https://semantics.uchicago.edu/kennedy/classes/w14/implicature/readings/spector13-llc.pdf https://semantics.uchicago.edu/kennedy/classes/w14/implicatu...
  - trhway 5y ago
    The language is clear "no more than".
bob33212 5y ago
I was a CTO for a few years at a startup, that definitely seems to be a turnoff from potential managers.
- Frost1x 5y ago
  It's really an issue with ego in organizational structures and power. I've managed people far more experienced or skilled in areas than me. It simply requires you to realize you're not inherently 'superior' to the people you manage, just that you're managing (i.e. manager) highly skilled people to solve problems. Recognize when to trust people and do just that--you know they're awesome, they know they're awesome, why not take advantage of that and build on it to create something more awesome? Learn to be wrong or make bad management decisions out of ignorance and accept when experienced people suggest or tell you otherwise--they may even give you a way out of a mess you created. Skilled people with that sort of experience often aren't trying to correct you to insult you, they're trying to help you, the team, and themselves by offering their wealth of experience and knowledge. It's when experienced people like this are quiet is when you should really be worried. If they aren't making suggestions, unless you're sure of yourself, you've likely created or been subjected to an environment experienced individuals have given up on improving and are now in death marches on your project efforts, quietly updating their resumes and awakening their contacts, looking for new positions.
  - runawaybottle 5y ago
    I recently dropped a sage bomb on a friend, and I was sure I hit some serious sage advice gold. Here it is: There is a difference between your identity being in something versus your heart being in something. Identity is a very very cheap substitute for passion and integrity. ‘I am this, therefore I am correct in doing this’. Young managers fundamentally will pay the price with identity, not anything else.
1e-9 5y ago
> I think the underlying reason is when you have far more experience than your future boss they are intimidated by you. That is so true; however, they tend to be weak managers with delicate egos and poor vision. Count yourself lucky you didn't waste your time. There are plenty of managers who highly value experience and capability regardless of age. They are worth searching for. Such a manager's project is probably also more challenging and interesting.
mrfusion 5y ago
Ive only ever been offered a job by someone older than me. Anytime someone younger interviewed me it never seemed to go well.
lifebeyondfife 5y ago
I'm an engineering manager in my 40s and I've hired engineers older than me. I appreciate you're absolutely correct, age discrimination does happen. One thing to consider for older engineers is that, though your technical expertise improves through the decades, it's not just technologies that you have to keep up with but also cultural practices. That is, the bad culture fit isn't necessarily code for "We don't want you because you're old." but could be a genuine reason. As an example, consider the book The Phoenix Project which dissects the reasons for discarding segregation of roles like developers, QA, and ops in separate teams into service teams of DevOps / T-shaped engineers. If you haven't worked in that environment or don't appreciate the difference, you may be judged accordingly.
- fridif 5y ago
  The only algorithm for hiring someone should be as follows: if (candidate.canCode && !candidate.isAsshole) return true; return false;
  - lifebeyondfife 5y ago
    I agree with you, those are absolutely fundamental. The bar should be set higher though, especially for senior engineers. https://benjiweber.co.uk/blog/2021/04/10/dont-hire-top-talent-hire-for-weaknesses/ https://benjiweber.co.uk/blog/2021/04/10/dont-hire-top-talen... This is why I stress the importance of culture. I got into engineering because I loved coding, I loved problem solving, I loved writing programs and making things happen on the screen. It's so easy for the team sport aspect of software engineering to become a blindspot if it's something you're not interested in.
  - zo1 5y ago
    What about candidate.can_work_in_a_team? Or follows_requirements_instead_of_doing_their_own_thing? It's a huge problem and there are so many difficult personalities out there that one has to look at "culture" and personality.
    - Yiin 5y ago
cbm-vic-20 5y ago
'cultural fit': No brown foreigners or old people, please.
- wyclif 5y ago
  Yes, "cultural fit" is just a way to evade the charge of discrimination in hiring.
  - blagie 5y ago
    It's more complex than that. At least at places I've worked, the discrimination is unacknowledged, but unintentional. It doesn't quite pass the bar for discrimination in hiring. Most black / brown people who grew up in white communities, and second-generation foreigners, do fine for "culture fit." It also cuts in all directions. There is a lack of culture fit with Chinese-run companies in the US hiring Americans, with African-Americans hiring foreigners, etc. That obviously favors groups most in power, but there are places where it favors other groups, and who is in power changes over decades. Fixing the problem involves being able to discuss that nuance.
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
Even younger picture cannot help those who are facing prejudice due to visible disability, deformity or racism. Biases due to profile picture adversely affecting marginalized is not new, Airbnb's black guests and owners have documented this under #AirbnbWhileBlack forcing the company to make several changes to how profile pictures and user names work. But LinkedIn never acknowledged these issues and has instead doubled down on visual identity now like having 'Video introduction' as a primary feature. I wouldn't be surprised if they introduce 'Upload your video to Sign in'[2]. [1] https://www.fastcompany.com/90460723/airbnbwhileblack-the-inside-story-of-airbnbs-racism-problem https://www.fastcompany.com/90460723/airbnbwhileblack-the-in... [2] https://hitstartup.com/year-2025/ https://hitstartup.com/year-2025/

by rmason 5y ago

trhway 5y ago

> It gets you the interview, you can pass the coding test but then get told that they don't think you're a 'cultural fit'. a recent AMZN innovation to optimize that process out - an explicitly stated max years of experience cap that thus effectively bars you even from applying (previous post with some replies https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27786601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27786601 ) You may be willing and qualified, yet because of age you can't even apply. Feels just nice.

Tade0 5y ago
How old is "old"? I'm 32, is my Lifeclock already red/black?
- trhway 5y ago
  may be. What i saw was a 10 years cap, and otherwise the next level on the menu was SDE 5 (i.e. principal, expected to have publications, etc., and only rare individuals can make SDE5 coming from outside as i gathered from googling) which i can only wish you great luck passing the interview for. Note: it was a real unambiguous cap, explicitly stressed as the strict cap 2 times, not that typical "we're looking for 5-10 years experience", and it was made clear that for exceeding the cap - either apply for SDE5 or don't bother to apply at all.
  - hinoki 5y ago
    Maybe they were talking about an experience cap for hiring at a given (low) level? Which is also stupid, but since many companies (I have no experience with Amazon, but I do know Microsoft and Facebook will) “manage you out” if you don’t get promotions at a minimum rate, makes some kind of sense. BTW, SDE 5 isn’t an Amazon level. There is L5, which corresponds to SDE II, which is only one promotion from college hire. And there is Principal, which is L7. https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Google&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Amazon,Google&track=Software...
- blooalien 5y ago
  Oooo! Nice "Logan's Run" reference! You win this thread in my book. ;)
pc86 5y ago
This is just another one of your comments saying the same thing. And the top reply is a current employee saying it's not true. Do you actually have any proof about what you're asserting?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- trhway 5y ago
  i guess it is a recent development as i don't remember seeing that from AMZN recruiters before and thus those current employees may not experienced it when they were recruited. I think it is an outrageous borderline illegal practice worth mentioning in related public forums, as I think it may become a widely accepted practice if not called. If you think about it - i posted about multi-trillion dollar company with an army of lawyers what probably [IANAL] can be construed as libel if not true. Would i be posting it if i didn't have documentary support for it? ( AMZN has it on their email servers too so it isn't out if the blue for them)
  - WaitWaitWha 5y ago
    I am calling this horse pucky. I am going to throw my anecdotal feedback to counter your anecdote. I checked with amzn recruiter friends and they were all going "wha?"... Their current biggest problem is "getting someone who is 50% better then the hiring team". Cutting people with extensive experience would be counterproductive to this goal.
  - pc86 5y ago
    So you don't have any corroborating evidence, any sources, anything other than your word? You might as well be making it up. "Well I'd get in trouble if I'm wrong" isn't a good defense, especially on a pseudonymous forum where people post wrong information constantly. I think the odds of AMZN trawling through your comments to try and figure out who you are just to pursue libel charges are as close to zero as anything could be.
_carbyau_ 5y ago
Could you do something like: I have 1 year experience. I also happen to have 2, 3, 4... etc. In total I have 15 but that includes any lesser number of years too.
- foldr 5y ago
  Going off on a bit of a tangent, this is a classical problem in linguistics. Is the literal meaning of "John has three cats" "John has exactly three cats" or "John has at least three cats"? https://semantics.uchicago.edu/kennedy/classes/w14/implicature/readings/spector13-llc.pdf https://semantics.uchicago.edu/kennedy/classes/w14/implicatu...
- trhway 5y ago
  The language is clear "no more than".

bob33212 5y ago

I was a CTO for a few years at a startup, that definitely seems to be a turnoff from potential managers.

Frost1x 5y ago
It's really an issue with ego in organizational structures and power. I've managed people far more experienced or skilled in areas than me. It simply requires you to realize you're not inherently 'superior' to the people you manage, just that you're managing (i.e. manager) highly skilled people to solve problems. Recognize when to trust people and do just that--you know they're awesome, they know they're awesome, why not take advantage of that and build on it to create something more awesome? Learn to be wrong or make bad management decisions out of ignorance and accept when experienced people suggest or tell you otherwise--they may even give you a way out of a mess you created. Skilled people with that sort of experience often aren't trying to correct you to insult you, they're trying to help you, the team, and themselves by offering their wealth of experience and knowledge. It's when experienced people like this are quiet is when you should really be worried. If they aren't making suggestions, unless you're sure of yourself, you've likely created or been subjected to an environment experienced individuals have given up on improving and are now in death marches on your project efforts, quietly updating their resumes and awakening their contacts, looking for new positions.
- runawaybottle 5y ago
  I recently dropped a sage bomb on a friend, and I was sure I hit some serious sage advice gold. Here it is: There is a difference between your identity being in something versus your heart being in something. Identity is a very very cheap substitute for passion and integrity. ‘I am this, therefore I am correct in doing this’. Young managers fundamentally will pay the price with identity, not anything else.

1e-9 5y ago

> I think the underlying reason is when you have far more experience than your future boss they are intimidated by you. That is so true; however, they tend to be weak managers with delicate egos and poor vision. Count yourself lucky you didn't waste your time. There are plenty of managers who highly value experience and capability regardless of age. They are worth searching for. Such a manager's project is probably also more challenging and interesting.

mrfusion 5y ago

Ive only ever been offered a job by someone older than me. Anytime someone younger interviewed me it never seemed to go well.

lifebeyondfife 5y ago

I'm an engineering manager in my 40s and I've hired engineers older than me. I appreciate you're absolutely correct, age discrimination does happen. One thing to consider for older engineers is that, though your technical expertise improves through the decades, it's not just technologies that you have to keep up with but also cultural practices. That is, the bad culture fit isn't necessarily code for "We don't want you because you're old." but could be a genuine reason. As an example, consider the book The Phoenix Project which dissects the reasons for discarding segregation of roles like developers, QA, and ops in separate teams into service teams of DevOps / T-shaped engineers. If you haven't worked in that environment or don't appreciate the difference, you may be judged accordingly.

fridif 5y ago
The only algorithm for hiring someone should be as follows: if (candidate.canCode && !candidate.isAsshole) return true; return false;
- lifebeyondfife 5y ago
  I agree with you, those are absolutely fundamental. The bar should be set higher though, especially for senior engineers. https://benjiweber.co.uk/blog/2021/04/10/dont-hire-top-talent-hire-for-weaknesses/ https://benjiweber.co.uk/blog/2021/04/10/dont-hire-top-talen... This is why I stress the importance of culture. I got into engineering because I loved coding, I loved problem solving, I loved writing programs and making things happen on the screen. It's so easy for the team sport aspect of software engineering to become a blindspot if it's something you're not interested in.
- zo1 5y ago
  What about candidate.can_work_in_a_team? Or follows_requirements_instead_of_doing_their_own_thing? It's a huge problem and there are so many difficult personalities out there that one has to look at "culture" and personality.
  - Yiin 5y ago

cbm-vic-20 5y ago

'cultural fit': No brown foreigners or old people, please.

wyclif 5y ago
Yes, "cultural fit" is just a way to evade the charge of discrimination in hiring.
- blagie 5y ago
  It's more complex than that. At least at places I've worked, the discrimination is unacknowledged, but unintentional. It doesn't quite pass the bar for discrimination in hiring. Most black / brown people who grew up in white communities, and second-generation foreigners, do fine for "culture fit." It also cuts in all directions. There is a lack of culture fit with Chinese-run companies in the US hiring Americans, with African-Americans hiring foreigners, etc. That obviously favors groups most in power, but there are places where it favors other groups, and who is in power changes over decades. Fixing the problem involves being able to discuss that nuance.

Abishek_Muthian 5y ago

Even younger picture cannot help those who are facing prejudice due to visible disability, deformity or racism. Biases due to profile picture adversely affecting marginalized is not new, Airbnb's black guests and owners have documented this under #AirbnbWhileBlack forcing the company to make several changes to how profile pictures and user names work. But LinkedIn never acknowledged these issues and has instead doubled down on visual identity now like having 'Video introduction' as a primary feature. I wouldn't be surprised if they introduce 'Upload your video to Sign in'[2]. [1] https://www.fastcompany.com/90460723/airbnbwhileblack-the-inside-story-of-airbnbs-racism-problem https://www.fastcompany.com/90460723/airbnbwhileblack-the-in... [2] https://hitstartup.com/year-2025/ https://hitstartup.com/year-2025/