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This seems way too conveniently dismissive of the environmental issue. Apple is the 800 lb gorilla that sets industry expectations. They have been gluing batter

This seems way too conveniently dismissive of the environmental issue. Apple is the 800 lb gorilla that sets industry expectations. They have been gluing batteries and making repair difficult across their product line for a decade. This leads to higher consumer costs and manufactured goods filling landfills prematurely. As one of the most visible companies in the world making repair difficult, the criticism is well-deserved. The airpods are perhaps the height of unrepairable apple tech. Sure any valid criticism of Apple is going to invite a pile-on from the apple haters but it does not follow that the original criticism is invalid.

dehrmann 5y ago
> This leads to higher consumer costs and manufactured goods filling landfills prematurely. Citation needed. Apple claims, and I'm fine with taking it with a grain of salt, that because batteries aren't replaceable like old Nokia phones, they can make the battery larger, possibly reducing consumer costs and how often batteries are changed. It's not just Apple, either. Consumers seem to not care.
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  It seems obvious to me that this is true at least with laptops. And whatever costs are saved by a 5% larger battery must surely be offset by the higher costs of replacement when the battery ultimately dies? I don't know it's so clear to me that this is true that I've not felt the need to research it. By all means if you have sources to the contrary I'd be happy to read them. To me, we could save significant environmental waste if everything we manufactured was made to be repaired. I designed several pairs of 3D printed headphones [1] which are now the only headphones I wear, and the idea that I can replace any part if it breaks seems significant to me. [1] https://github.com/tlalexander/reboot-headphones https://github.com/tlalexander/reboot-headphones
  - wyre 5y ago
    It takes a long time for modern batteries to get to a point of unusability and replacement. Yes, Apple and others want consumers to purchase the new product and that is often the case because of the fast advancement of technology. This is worse with android phones because the support cycle is much shorter. I often drop my phone and it’s great not having to worry about my phone’s battery falling out making me lose my data. I’m glad there is a small section of the market with brands like Fairphone and Lenovo still offering replaceable batteries because it is very important to some consumers, but most people dont care or think about it at all.
    - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
      > most people dont care or think about it at all This is orthogonal to the question of whether or not the practice is environmentally friendly. Most people have been buying gasoline for 50 years but that’s also causing environmental problems. All of these manufactured devices take a lot of resources to create. Often “unusability” means the operating system has outgrown the hardware, but we can easily imagine Apple allowing third party operating systems on their unsupported phone and tablet devices. This would extend the life of the hardware, significantly reduced waste, and lower people’s cost of living. But even when Apple devices can be fixed for free the company will quote exorbitant repair prices and suggest the customer replace the device. (See links below which I also shared in another comment) From this we can see that Apple is not making the effort to keep old devices functional and they will mislead customers about it to sell them a new device. This leads to hardware waste and higher costs for consumers. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1A9y4S60kg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1A9y4S60kg [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RXJP4mxCc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RXJP4mxCc
      - wyre 5y ago
        Why is it always about Apple being so bad? Sure, I’ll agree their market share and ecosystem let’s them take advantage of their customers, but Apple is one of the few companies where normies are still comfortably using 5+ year old phones and computers. I’ve heard MacBooks make great Linux machines, too. They are far above the curve for longevity of devices. If AirPods are making people lose sleep because they aren’t environmentally friendly, then let me introduce you to PuffBars or any of those disposable nicotine vapes that aren’t rechargeable or refillable and often lose all battery life before juice. Or simply the entire lithium lifecycle is incredibly wasteful regardless of the product it is in. I want to point out EVs aren’t going to last significantly longer than a MacBook will and contain much more lithium that needs to be dealt with. I get that it’s fun or hip to be anti-Apple, and I’ll agree that they could be better from an environmental standpoint, but they are doing a lot better than most and there are a lot more environmental travesties occurring than the small batteries in AirPods.
  - dann0 5y ago
    I love the idea that you have designed and made your own headphones. I'm also glad that these work for you. However, your argument about reducing environmental waste is flawed. AirPod, in total, weigh less and use far less plastic than your design. Given the scale of production, the raw material to final product path will be short and relatively low impact. Your process involves much more packaging, transport and middle-man costs. Feature set wise, your design is also significantly less. I'm very supportive of people making product that is better suited to them, but the idea of this approach being somehow less wasteful is completely ridiculous.
    - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
      Because the airpod is a small device, this is true. However in general I believe open source hardware and infinitely repairable devices across the board would lead to less waste than proprietary technology with restricted repair. My vision is not that one person designs open source headphones. My vision is that the primary suppliers of consumer products make their products open source. That would be a very different world, but I argue that it would be one with significantly less material waste. In such a world, headphones would be both well designed and infinitely repairable. By the way I have a new design that is more attractive. https://twitter.com/TLAlexander/status/1403968653406597122 https://twitter.com/TLAlexander/status/1403968653406597122
samatman 5y ago
Apple laptops and phones objectively last longer than the competition. Most of that is software support. Some of it is that they make few models, and sell at a premium, so there is a robust secondary market in used devices. They continue to make and sell batteries for old models, and there are plenty of counterfeits available if you want to risk it. Apple recently (late last year) replaced the battery on my Mom's iPhone 6, which will turn seven this year. I saw an estimate that half of all iPhones 4 are still in use, mostly in developing nations. That was two years ago, but, still. As for laptops, same basic principle applies, except I have to give a shoutout to the Thinkpad T series for sheer longevity. You have to want a Thinkpad T, but if you do, they're excellent and durable computers. But with that one (sterling) exception, Macbooks last about twice as long as anyone else's computers. You can easily confirm this yourself by checking eBay. The butterfly keyboard era may have put an end to that, though, which is a damn shame, but we can hope the return of the scissor keyboard will bring it back. As for the AirPods. What are we talking about on this page again?
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  > Apple laptops and phones objectively last longer than the competition. I'm not sure if you've spent much time watching Louis Rossman's youtube channel, but it is full of examples of Apple telling customers a device needs to be replaced when simple repairs are possible. [1][2][3] Apple worked with US Customs and Border Patrol to seize replacement batteries for laptops that apple will no longer service. [4] Rossman has a lot of videos so I did not find original sources for the following, but he has also called Apple support about replacing a charging port on a phone. Apple support told him the charging port was soldered to the motherboard and the phone needed to be replaced. But that charging port on that device is attached via a cable and is not soldered to the board. It can be replaced for a few dollars in five minutes. Rossman also says that apple prevents third party chip manufacturers from selling to repair shops. So Rossman could repair certain macbooks with a $6 chip from (I believe) Intersil, but Apple (being an 800lb gorilla) has asked Intersil not to sell those chips to anyone else. So apple won't replace that chip on your motherboard but they also won't let anyone else do it. It's great that apple will replace batteries, but I seem to recall there was significant consumer (or government?) pressure to offer those replacements. And I would be curious if they do that worldwide or only where legally required. But watching Rossman's youtube channel, it is clear that repair is about much more than batteries. It's good that their products are long lasting, but at some point they will all eventually break. Millions of apple products must break each year. Apple could help extend the lives of those products, saving customers money and cutting down on waste. Instead, they seem eager to blame every problem on water damage and quote $1200 for repairs which could be done for a few dollars. (the first three video links make that clear) I don't see the point in defending Apple here. I am sure other companies are bad too, but Apple is the industry leader and their failure to embrace repair sets expectations across the board. If it was consumer pressure that led to their battery replacement program, we may be able to apply similar pressures for right to repair. But only if we're willing to acknowledge the problems with their behavior and push back against them. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1A9y4S60kg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1A9y4S60kg [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RXJP4mxCc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RXJP4mxCc [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVL65qwBGnw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVL65qwBGnw

dehrmann 5y ago

> This leads to higher consumer costs and manufactured goods filling landfills prematurely. Citation needed. Apple claims, and I'm fine with taking it with a grain of salt, that because batteries aren't replaceable like old Nokia phones, they can make the battery larger, possibly reducing consumer costs and how often batteries are changed. It's not just Apple, either. Consumers seem to not care.

TaylorAlexander 5y ago
It seems obvious to me that this is true at least with laptops. And whatever costs are saved by a 5% larger battery must surely be offset by the higher costs of replacement when the battery ultimately dies? I don't know it's so clear to me that this is true that I've not felt the need to research it. By all means if you have sources to the contrary I'd be happy to read them. To me, we could save significant environmental waste if everything we manufactured was made to be repaired. I designed several pairs of 3D printed headphones [1] which are now the only headphones I wear, and the idea that I can replace any part if it breaks seems significant to me. [1] https://github.com/tlalexander/reboot-headphones https://github.com/tlalexander/reboot-headphones
- wyre 5y ago
  It takes a long time for modern batteries to get to a point of unusability and replacement. Yes, Apple and others want consumers to purchase the new product and that is often the case because of the fast advancement of technology. This is worse with android phones because the support cycle is much shorter. I often drop my phone and it’s great not having to worry about my phone’s battery falling out making me lose my data. I’m glad there is a small section of the market with brands like Fairphone and Lenovo still offering replaceable batteries because it is very important to some consumers, but most people dont care or think about it at all.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    > most people dont care or think about it at all This is orthogonal to the question of whether or not the practice is environmentally friendly. Most people have been buying gasoline for 50 years but that’s also causing environmental problems. All of these manufactured devices take a lot of resources to create. Often “unusability” means the operating system has outgrown the hardware, but we can easily imagine Apple allowing third party operating systems on their unsupported phone and tablet devices. This would extend the life of the hardware, significantly reduced waste, and lower people’s cost of living. But even when Apple devices can be fixed for free the company will quote exorbitant repair prices and suggest the customer replace the device. (See links below which I also shared in another comment) From this we can see that Apple is not making the effort to keep old devices functional and they will mislead customers about it to sell them a new device. This leads to hardware waste and higher costs for consumers. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1A9y4S60kg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1A9y4S60kg [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RXJP4mxCc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RXJP4mxCc
    - wyre 5y ago
      Why is it always about Apple being so bad? Sure, I’ll agree their market share and ecosystem let’s them take advantage of their customers, but Apple is one of the few companies where normies are still comfortably using 5+ year old phones and computers. I’ve heard MacBooks make great Linux machines, too. They are far above the curve for longevity of devices. If AirPods are making people lose sleep because they aren’t environmentally friendly, then let me introduce you to PuffBars or any of those disposable nicotine vapes that aren’t rechargeable or refillable and often lose all battery life before juice. Or simply the entire lithium lifecycle is incredibly wasteful regardless of the product it is in. I want to point out EVs aren’t going to last significantly longer than a MacBook will and contain much more lithium that needs to be dealt with. I get that it’s fun or hip to be anti-Apple, and I’ll agree that they could be better from an environmental standpoint, but they are doing a lot better than most and there are a lot more environmental travesties occurring than the small batteries in AirPods.
- dann0 5y ago
  I love the idea that you have designed and made your own headphones. I'm also glad that these work for you. However, your argument about reducing environmental waste is flawed. AirPod, in total, weigh less and use far less plastic than your design. Given the scale of production, the raw material to final product path will be short and relatively low impact. Your process involves much more packaging, transport and middle-man costs. Feature set wise, your design is also significantly less. I'm very supportive of people making product that is better suited to them, but the idea of this approach being somehow less wasteful is completely ridiculous.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    Because the airpod is a small device, this is true. However in general I believe open source hardware and infinitely repairable devices across the board would lead to less waste than proprietary technology with restricted repair. My vision is not that one person designs open source headphones. My vision is that the primary suppliers of consumer products make their products open source. That would be a very different world, but I argue that it would be one with significantly less material waste. In such a world, headphones would be both well designed and infinitely repairable. By the way I have a new design that is more attractive. https://twitter.com/TLAlexander/status/1403968653406597122 https://twitter.com/TLAlexander/status/1403968653406597122

samatman 5y ago

Apple laptops and phones objectively last longer than the competition. Most of that is software support. Some of it is that they make few models, and sell at a premium, so there is a robust secondary market in used devices. They continue to make and sell batteries for old models, and there are plenty of counterfeits available if you want to risk it. Apple recently (late last year) replaced the battery on my Mom's iPhone 6, which will turn seven this year. I saw an estimate that half of all iPhones 4 are still in use, mostly in developing nations. That was two years ago, but, still. As for laptops, same basic principle applies, except I have to give a shoutout to the Thinkpad T series for sheer longevity. You have to want a Thinkpad T, but if you do, they're excellent and durable computers. But with that one (sterling) exception, Macbooks last about twice as long as anyone else's computers. You can easily confirm this yourself by checking eBay. The butterfly keyboard era may have put an end to that, though, which is a damn shame, but we can hope the return of the scissor keyboard will bring it back. As for the AirPods. What are we talking about on this page again?

TaylorAlexander 5y ago
> Apple laptops and phones objectively last longer than the competition. I'm not sure if you've spent much time watching Louis Rossman's youtube channel, but it is full of examples of Apple telling customers a device needs to be replaced when simple repairs are possible. [1][2][3] Apple worked with US Customs and Border Patrol to seize replacement batteries for laptops that apple will no longer service. [4] Rossman has a lot of videos so I did not find original sources for the following, but he has also called Apple support about replacing a charging port on a phone. Apple support told him the charging port was soldered to the motherboard and the phone needed to be replaced. But that charging port on that device is attached via a cable and is not soldered to the board. It can be replaced for a few dollars in five minutes. Rossman also says that apple prevents third party chip manufacturers from selling to repair shops. So Rossman could repair certain macbooks with a $6 chip from (I believe) Intersil, but Apple (being an 800lb gorilla) has asked Intersil not to sell those chips to anyone else. So apple won't replace that chip on your motherboard but they also won't let anyone else do it. It's great that apple will replace batteries, but I seem to recall there was significant consumer (or government?) pressure to offer those replacements. And I would be curious if they do that worldwide or only where legally required. But watching Rossman's youtube channel, it is clear that repair is about much more than batteries. It's good that their products are long lasting, but at some point they will all eventually break. Millions of apple products must break each year. Apple could help extend the lives of those products, saving customers money and cutting down on waste. Instead, they seem eager to blame every problem on water damage and quote $1200 for repairs which could be done for a few dollars. (the first three video links make that clear) I don't see the point in defending Apple here. I am sure other companies are bad too, but Apple is the industry leader and their failure to embrace repair sets expectations across the board. If it was consumer pressure that led to their battery replacement program, we may be able to apply similar pressures for right to repair. But only if we're willing to acknowledge the problems with their behavior and push back against them. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1A9y4S60kg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1A9y4S60kg [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RXJP4mxCc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7RXJP4mxCc [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVL65qwBGnw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVL65qwBGnw