4 ms·

It doesn’t depend on the student. Every developer starts out as a dumbass. There are an infinite number of sharp edges in software and we all cut ourselves on

It doesn’t depend on the student. Every developer starts out as a dumbass. There are an infinite number of sharp edges in software and we all cut ourselves on all of them.

asdjlkadsjklads 5y ago
Couldn't agree more. The only reason i'd call myself employable as a developer is because i've taken on many self-projects and reinvented many wheels, which resulted in lots of sharp corners and hard lessons learned. It's a definite time sink to learn these lessons, but it's of real value to me personally.
wernercd 5y ago
"starts out as" 10 years in and I'm still a dumbass... I work circles around most and I'm still a dumbass... I'm close to being honestly a full stack developer - server, database, api, windows services, websites (I know Asp.net MVC... but not deeply... finally learning Angular)... ... I'm still a dumbass... I wonder... if after 10 years... will I stop being one after 20? 30?
- aniforprez 5y ago
  Honestly the feeling hasn't completely gone away but I've slowly stopped thinking of myself this way as intensely as I did before. What it took was strong mentorship from a really good boss and exposure to all levels of the stack and strong architectural and technical principles to building robust applications. Taking some interviews I felt much better about myself than I had in years cause I was actually able to answer things that I couldn't have a couple of years ago I hope you find that place in your life too. It's a lot of relief when it happens
- sangnoir 5y ago
  > ... I'm still a dumbass... While that may be true, you're less of a dumbass now, thanks to experiences. If you were to guide a junior developer now, you'd probably walk them back from a dozen sharp edges, thanks to your experience, but we tend to discount that.
- miscaccount 5y ago
  i feel also with time, you get better from recovering from these stupid mistakes faster and also come up with better solutions/fixes faster. This will have taken your younger self , twice or more to understand the problem and come up with solution
  - devoutsalsa 5y ago
    You also getting better at owning mistakes without making them sound like a big deal. You just say stuff like “that’s an interesting edge you’d only learn by querying a table with millions of rows” instead of anxiously shitting your pants in shame. Last Friday learned that Postgres (and apparently MySQL) will effectively ignore an index in a column when combining “ORDER BY … LIMIT …” and “WHERE some_column IN some_array”. I had introduced a query that timed out on a critical prod table , fixed it by removing the limit, and turned it into a teaching moment to others who could have made the same mistake: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8909163/avoid-full-table-scan-in-mysql-while-using-order-by-with-limit https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8909163/avoid-full-table...
- lowercased 5y ago
  No. 25 years in here. You may think you're a dumbass even then. Other people may think you're a dumbass. You will still make stupid mistakes. You will probably make fewer than other people, and there will be many mistakes you don't make any longer, because you've already made them and have learned your lessons. But the feeling of being a dumbass may never leave you entirely. You will need to learn to control that some, and not always let on to everyone around you how dumb you feel at all times. But... honestly, the folks I've worked with who never ever admit to feeling dumb or doing dumb things - they STILL make the same mistakes, often more, and seem to have no capacity for self-reflection or skills improvement. So... understand your "I'm a dumbass" feeling may just be part of you pointing out that you can get better, and help you find opportunities to improve.
  - wernercd 5y ago
    Well, I honestly use the feeling of being a dumbass (AKA: imposter syndrome) as fuel to learn more and do better. As you say, self reflection and skill improvement. I honestly think it's why I'm a good programmer... That... and being lazy. I'll work for weeks to make processes easier. IE: a release process that used to be manual and fraught with mistakes is now, more or less, button clicks and powershell scripts.
_dibly 5y ago
I'm almost two years into self-employment and I'm wondering when I'm going to either stop cutting myself on things or land a position with some people who can show me their cool scars for a while. This forum is the closest thing I get to coworkers and I don't even understand what half of you are saying. I'm fortunate for the opportunities that I have, but my antisocial tendencies and lack of professional peers can make progress a bit of a bear on occasion.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  It never ends, unless you stop advancing/keeping up. That's the frustrating thing about this field, you are never an expert because the technology advances so quickly.
- flir 5y ago
  It's just as important to develop the soft skills as the hard skills, and I think you've just quite nicely summarized why that is.
- ficklepickle 5y ago
  I'm in a very similar situation, just a few years further down the road. I would gladly show you my cool scars. I have often thought about trying to build a network of like-minded individuals. Of course, it doesn't come naturally. If it did, there wouldn't be a need for it! My contact info is in my profile, feel free to reach out.
- solraph 5y ago
  I'm somewhere between two and three decades in the field. > when I'm going to either stop cutting myself on things Never. You (should) get better at recognising some of the themes and danger signs, but the field evolves so fast that at some point you are going to work with something so new that literally nobody knows what the sharp edges are. > land a position with some people who can show me their cool scars for a while. Meetups, slack, discord, IRC, forums. Find the one that works for you and be a regular. Be an expert in one subject and be modest and willing to learn when it comes to others. Nobody has it all figured out.
- 5y ago

It doesn’t depend on the student. Every developer starts out as a dumbass. There are an infinite number of sharp edges in software and we all cut ourselves on all of them.

asdjlkadsjklads 5y ago

Couldn't agree more. The only reason i'd call myself employable as a developer is because i've taken on many self-projects and reinvented many wheels, which resulted in lots of sharp corners and hard lessons learned. It's a definite time sink to learn these lessons, but it's of real value to me personally.

wernercd 5y ago

"starts out as" 10 years in and I'm still a dumbass... I work circles around most and I'm still a dumbass... I'm close to being honestly a full stack developer - server, database, api, windows services, websites (I know Asp.net MVC... but not deeply... finally learning Angular)... ... I'm still a dumbass... I wonder... if after 10 years... will I stop being one after 20? 30?

aniforprez 5y ago
Honestly the feeling hasn't completely gone away but I've slowly stopped thinking of myself this way as intensely as I did before. What it took was strong mentorship from a really good boss and exposure to all levels of the stack and strong architectural and technical principles to building robust applications. Taking some interviews I felt much better about myself than I had in years cause I was actually able to answer things that I couldn't have a couple of years ago I hope you find that place in your life too. It's a lot of relief when it happens
sangnoir 5y ago
> ... I'm still a dumbass... While that may be true, you're less of a dumbass now, thanks to experiences. If you were to guide a junior developer now, you'd probably walk them back from a dozen sharp edges, thanks to your experience, but we tend to discount that.
miscaccount 5y ago
i feel also with time, you get better from recovering from these stupid mistakes faster and also come up with better solutions/fixes faster. This will have taken your younger self , twice or more to understand the problem and come up with solution
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  You also getting better at owning mistakes without making them sound like a big deal. You just say stuff like “that’s an interesting edge you’d only learn by querying a table with millions of rows” instead of anxiously shitting your pants in shame. Last Friday learned that Postgres (and apparently MySQL) will effectively ignore an index in a column when combining “ORDER BY … LIMIT …” and “WHERE some_column IN some_array”. I had introduced a query that timed out on a critical prod table , fixed it by removing the limit, and turned it into a teaching moment to others who could have made the same mistake: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8909163/avoid-full-table-scan-in-mysql-while-using-order-by-with-limit https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8909163/avoid-full-table...
lowercased 5y ago
No. 25 years in here. You may think you're a dumbass even then. Other people may think you're a dumbass. You will still make stupid mistakes. You will probably make fewer than other people, and there will be many mistakes you don't make any longer, because you've already made them and have learned your lessons. But the feeling of being a dumbass may never leave you entirely. You will need to learn to control that some, and not always let on to everyone around you how dumb you feel at all times. But... honestly, the folks I've worked with who never ever admit to feeling dumb or doing dumb things - they STILL make the same mistakes, often more, and seem to have no capacity for self-reflection or skills improvement. So... understand your "I'm a dumbass" feeling may just be part of you pointing out that you can get better, and help you find opportunities to improve.
- wernercd 5y ago
  Well, I honestly use the feeling of being a dumbass (AKA: imposter syndrome) as fuel to learn more and do better. As you say, self reflection and skill improvement. I honestly think it's why I'm a good programmer... That... and being lazy. I'll work for weeks to make processes easier. IE: a release process that used to be manual and fraught with mistakes is now, more or less, button clicks and powershell scripts.

_dibly 5y ago

I'm almost two years into self-employment and I'm wondering when I'm going to either stop cutting myself on things or land a position with some people who can show me their cool scars for a while. This forum is the closest thing I get to coworkers and I don't even understand what half of you are saying. I'm fortunate for the opportunities that I have, but my antisocial tendencies and lack of professional peers can make progress a bit of a bear on occasion.

throwawayboise 5y ago
It never ends, unless you stop advancing/keeping up. That's the frustrating thing about this field, you are never an expert because the technology advances so quickly.
flir 5y ago
It's just as important to develop the soft skills as the hard skills, and I think you've just quite nicely summarized why that is.
ficklepickle 5y ago
I'm in a very similar situation, just a few years further down the road. I would gladly show you my cool scars. I have often thought about trying to build a network of like-minded individuals. Of course, it doesn't come naturally. If it did, there wouldn't be a need for it! My contact info is in my profile, feel free to reach out.
solraph 5y ago
I'm somewhere between two and three decades in the field. > when I'm going to either stop cutting myself on things Never. You (should) get better at recognising some of the themes and danger signs, but the field evolves so fast that at some point you are going to work with something so new that literally nobody knows what the sharp edges are. > land a position with some people who can show me their cool scars for a while. Meetups, slack, discord, IRC, forums. Find the one that works for you and be a regular. Be an expert in one subject and be modest and willing to learn when it comes to others. Nobody has it all figured out.
5y ago