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But we can't have the alternative that's worked everywhere that's tried it: educating Women. If that happened the pervasive corruption might be questioned. Ins

by swiley 5y ago

But we can't have the alternative that's worked everywhere that's tried it: educating Women. If that happened the pervasive corruption might be questioned. Instead we'll just kill the extra children.

ip26 5y ago
Two thoughts, 1) educating women must take at least ten years to show up in birth rates 2) women with fewer children might have an easier time educating themselves & getting the snowball going
galuggus 5y ago
Why would that cause corruption to be questioned?
- revnode 5y ago
  A substantial aspect of education is learning about how others live and alternative forms of organization. If you don't know any better, the status quo seems like the only outcome possible. If you know others are living better lives and corruption is optional, questions start being asked.
vsskanth 5y ago
Strongly Agree. Population control is trying to affect second order outcomes and has shown to create demographic time bombs. The only intervention supported by data is providing and mandating access to good education, jobs, birth control and enforcing legal rights to women. Nothing else even comes close. This policy is being proposed in UP, which performs very poorly on women's equality compared to higher GDP states. All they have to look at the birth rates in southern states with high education outcomes for women - Kerala,Karnataka and TN
Huwyt_Nashi053 5y ago
I would hope that we could find a way to decouple reproductive rates from women's education. Otherwise a very strong argument could be made for placing severe restrictions on education for women in most of Europe, North America, Japan, Australia, etc, all of which are experiencing catastrophic declines in their native populations.
naveen99 5y ago
Who said anything about killing extra children ? They are just proposing 100,000 rupees for limiting to one baby. or some minor economic disincentives for more than 2 babies, on top of which are already there in practice and naturally for even 1 baby. By your logic, if we needed more babies you would stop educating women ? Education and baby making are orthogonal issues.
- watwut 5y ago
  Educated women who have larger control of their lives tend to choose to have less children. That is how it works. Stopping to educate women and limiting our ability to make own decisions would probably made women have less children. It would however be unethical, cruel and oppressive.
  - creamytaco 5y ago
    Your argument holds no water and is exposing you as indulging in binary thinking. Educating women is one possible way to deal with the issue, that doesn't mean it is the _only_ way. Like someone else said, it will take at least a generation for effects to kick in. On the other hand, the policies that the article refers to can be effective immediately (and also applied together with other measures such as educating women).
    - watwut 5y ago
      Actually, effect is faster then generation, because effect starts way sooner then when they have PhD. Also, there is no binary thinking involved in what I wrote. This effect is real and repeated itself multiple times.
slothtrop 5y ago
Notwithstanding that this would be a good thing (education I mean), economic development and lifting people from poverty, alongside widespread access to contraceptives, has had a strong impact on fertility rate in the 1st world and in the long-run influenced attitudes on education as well.
cute_boi 5y ago
Looks like most people don't read the draft and comment whatever they like. It is easy to say educate women but when there are so many women less resource/finance it is hard to scale. This policy will help educating women in a sense that there is incentive. The draft is not about killing extra children but its about preventing the birth. The draft says it will even provide free education to single child. The policy also says it provides incentive to family that follows the rule. Those who don't follow simply wont get incentive. I think this is correct way to handle population. India is largely overpopulated anyway. And there is constant pressure on resource. And lastly, its not like China policy where someone is forced. India is democratic country and I think this is a good policy at least on paper. Regarding implementation we will see in future.
- tchalla 5y ago
  > It is easy to say educate women but when there are so many women less resource/finance it is hard to scale. There are many problems in life that are hard. The difficulty level of the problem can not be used an excuse. You can decide to avoid tackling hard problems and let someone else take care of it if it's "too hard". > I think this is correct way to handle population. India is largely overpopulated anyway. And there is constant pressure on resource. What number would make India "not so populated"? How do you come up with this number?
  - creamytaco 5y ago
    In any capable administration, a strong degree of pragmatism is required. The difficulty level should not be used as an "excuse" but it should be strongly considered as part of planning. That way, a connection with reality is maintained. History has taught us that when decisions are made largely based on ideological / moral concerns, that connection with reality is severed and the outcome tends to be, as one would expect, negative if not entirely catastrophic. This was an important aspect of the world we live in 100 years ago, but it is even more so today, because system complexity and degree of non-linear effects has increased exponentially. Humans are not in any way able to change the system they live in, top-down, regardless of how many of them -still- indulge in this sort of magical thinking. Rather, they should strive to first understand the (localized) parts of the system that directly surround them, and then effect change from the bottom-up, in harmony with the rules and flows of that systemic environment. In other words, realpolitik should be the order of the day.
nobody0 5y ago
And also developing a booming economy, we have seen the shift happens in East Asia in last three decades, they once was very interested in having childrens now are into a aging stable society where young people continue to put off their marriage.
intev 5y ago
> Instead we'll just kill the extra children. Hyperbolic much? I agree there might be better ways but everything mentioned only has incentives and seems like a much lighter version of the Chinese policy.
dirtyid 5y ago
>educating Women Too hard within context of current Indian institutional capabilities, and more importantly requires generations to pay off / take too long. Necessary long term goal, but doesn't avert 400M+ projected Indian births in an already overpopulated country that needs to maintain above 8% growth just to keep up with employment. Which they're not meeting. For reference height of PRC / China export manufacturing only supported ~400M jobs. Automation + geopolitics means India completely missed out prospect of concentrating global manufacturing. There's not much on the horizon but continuing with massive subsistent agriculture with massive idle / under / unemployment. High TFR + poverty + inadequate growth = generating more net unemployment and instability every year, which cause more governance problems = overpopulation spiral. Family planning is a viable stop gab that's relatively enforceable, immediately. It's a band aid solution paid in later demographic bomb that may or may not be averted / mitigated with development or technology. Status quo is geometric poverty population growth that's going to hit carrying capacity of geography. 100s of millions of excessed impoverished people that will drag development. For context PRC one child policy averted 300M+ births, even now 600M of country is barely middle income. There are just too many people. Sure a demographic bomb coming but it's better to manage a demographic bomb with high wealth per capita. World needs heterodox policies to address end of population driven social and economic structures. India needs to prevent 100s millions more births ASAP and hope some of these policies work.
naruvimama 5y ago
Education does not necessarily work on certain religious groups.

by swiley 5y ago

But we can't have the alternative that's worked everywhere that's tried it: educating Women. If that happened the pervasive corruption might be questioned. Instead we'll just kill the extra children.

ip26 5y ago

Two thoughts, 1) educating women must take at least ten years to show up in birth rates 2) women with fewer children might have an easier time educating themselves & getting the snowball going

galuggus 5y ago

Why would that cause corruption to be questioned?

revnode 5y ago
A substantial aspect of education is learning about how others live and alternative forms of organization. If you don't know any better, the status quo seems like the only outcome possible. If you know others are living better lives and corruption is optional, questions start being asked.

vsskanth 5y ago

Strongly Agree. Population control is trying to affect second order outcomes and has shown to create demographic time bombs. The only intervention supported by data is providing and mandating access to good education, jobs, birth control and enforcing legal rights to women. Nothing else even comes close. This policy is being proposed in UP, which performs very poorly on women's equality compared to higher GDP states. All they have to look at the birth rates in southern states with high education outcomes for women - Kerala,Karnataka and TN

Huwyt_Nashi053 5y ago

I would hope that we could find a way to decouple reproductive rates from women's education. Otherwise a very strong argument could be made for placing severe restrictions on education for women in most of Europe, North America, Japan, Australia, etc, all of which are experiencing catastrophic declines in their native populations.

naveen99 5y ago

Who said anything about killing extra children ? They are just proposing 100,000 rupees for limiting to one baby. or some minor economic disincentives for more than 2 babies, on top of which are already there in practice and naturally for even 1 baby. By your logic, if we needed more babies you would stop educating women ? Education and baby making are orthogonal issues.

watwut 5y ago
Educated women who have larger control of their lives tend to choose to have less children. That is how it works. Stopping to educate women and limiting our ability to make own decisions would probably made women have less children. It would however be unethical, cruel and oppressive.
- creamytaco 5y ago
  Your argument holds no water and is exposing you as indulging in binary thinking. Educating women is one possible way to deal with the issue, that doesn't mean it is the _only_ way. Like someone else said, it will take at least a generation for effects to kick in. On the other hand, the policies that the article refers to can be effective immediately (and also applied together with other measures such as educating women).
  - watwut 5y ago
    Actually, effect is faster then generation, because effect starts way sooner then when they have PhD. Also, there is no binary thinking involved in what I wrote. This effect is real and repeated itself multiple times.

slothtrop 5y ago

Notwithstanding that this would be a good thing (education I mean), economic development and lifting people from poverty, alongside widespread access to contraceptives, has had a strong impact on fertility rate in the 1st world and in the long-run influenced attitudes on education as well.

cute_boi 5y ago

Looks like most people don't read the draft and comment whatever they like. It is easy to say educate women but when there are so many women less resource/finance it is hard to scale. This policy will help educating women in a sense that there is incentive. The draft is not about killing extra children but its about preventing the birth. The draft says it will even provide free education to single child. The policy also says it provides incentive to family that follows the rule. Those who don't follow simply wont get incentive. I think this is correct way to handle population. India is largely overpopulated anyway. And there is constant pressure on resource. And lastly, its not like China policy where someone is forced. India is democratic country and I think this is a good policy at least on paper. Regarding implementation we will see in future.

tchalla 5y ago
> It is easy to say educate women but when there are so many women less resource/finance it is hard to scale. There are many problems in life that are hard. The difficulty level of the problem can not be used an excuse. You can decide to avoid tackling hard problems and let someone else take care of it if it's "too hard". > I think this is correct way to handle population. India is largely overpopulated anyway. And there is constant pressure on resource. What number would make India "not so populated"? How do you come up with this number?
- creamytaco 5y ago
  In any capable administration, a strong degree of pragmatism is required. The difficulty level should not be used as an "excuse" but it should be strongly considered as part of planning. That way, a connection with reality is maintained. History has taught us that when decisions are made largely based on ideological / moral concerns, that connection with reality is severed and the outcome tends to be, as one would expect, negative if not entirely catastrophic. This was an important aspect of the world we live in 100 years ago, but it is even more so today, because system complexity and degree of non-linear effects has increased exponentially. Humans are not in any way able to change the system they live in, top-down, regardless of how many of them -still- indulge in this sort of magical thinking. Rather, they should strive to first understand the (localized) parts of the system that directly surround them, and then effect change from the bottom-up, in harmony with the rules and flows of that systemic environment. In other words, realpolitik should be the order of the day.

nobody0 5y ago

And also developing a booming economy, we have seen the shift happens in East Asia in last three decades, they once was very interested in having childrens now are into a aging stable society where young people continue to put off their marriage.

intev 5y ago

> Instead we'll just kill the extra children. Hyperbolic much? I agree there might be better ways but everything mentioned only has incentives and seems like a much lighter version of the Chinese policy.

dirtyid 5y ago

>educating Women Too hard within context of current Indian institutional capabilities, and more importantly requires generations to pay off / take too long. Necessary long term goal, but doesn't avert 400M+ projected Indian births in an already overpopulated country that needs to maintain above 8% growth just to keep up with employment. Which they're not meeting. For reference height of PRC / China export manufacturing only supported ~400M jobs. Automation + geopolitics means India completely missed out prospect of concentrating global manufacturing. There's not much on the horizon but continuing with massive subsistent agriculture with massive idle / under / unemployment. High TFR + poverty + inadequate growth = generating more net unemployment and instability every year, which cause more governance problems = overpopulation spiral. Family planning is a viable stop gab that's relatively enforceable, immediately. It's a band aid solution paid in later demographic bomb that may or may not be averted / mitigated with development or technology. Status quo is geometric poverty population growth that's going to hit carrying capacity of geography. 100s of millions of excessed impoverished people that will drag development. For context PRC one child policy averted 300M+ births, even now 600M of country is barely middle income. There are just too many people. Sure a demographic bomb coming but it's better to manage a demographic bomb with high wealth per capita. World needs heterodox policies to address end of population driven social and economic structures. India needs to prevent 100s millions more births ASAP and hope some of these policies work.

naruvimama 5y ago

Education does not necessarily work on certain religious groups.