4 ms·

Kind of agree with the first half of your comment, but I think the second half seriously sells both the efforts to make things safe and the character of the fir

Kind of agree with the first half of your comment, but I think the second half seriously sells both the efforts to make things safe and the character of the first astronauts short. People didn't become test pilots through obedience, and I don't think they were particularly treated as expandable either.

inglor_cz 5y ago
These are now distant times for us. Back then, the overall tolerance for loss of life among pilots was much higher. Not least because there were either active conflicts going on (Vietnam) or very fresh memories of other conflicts with large death toll (WWII, Korea). I don't think that the first astronauts were as expendable as paper tissues, no, but their level of expendability almost certainly exceeded the norm of 2021. We are being much more careful now. Even civil aviation was much less safe than today and the expectations of deaths around anything that flew were simply higher. As far as obedience goes, I can believe that test pilots are on average less obedient than an average member of the military. They might be better motivated/manipulated through feelings of national pride etc., though.
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  > As far as obedience goes, I can believe that test pilots are on average less obedient than an average member of the military. They might be better motivated/manipulated through feelings of national pride etc., though. That's false for a number of reasons: 1) military test pilots followed orders. Chuck Yeager also said that it was a sense of duty that motivated him. Test pilots follow a "test profile", so there isn't a lot of time for showboating. If you watch some YT videos on military test pilot training, you'll understand how they're the opposite of cowboys. 2) civilian test pilots demanded 6-figure bonuses for test flights, so they were the "less obedient" ones. Though Scott Crossfield held back in the X-15 to avoid setting certain space records first by a civilian instead of the military, as requested. 3) the X-Planes program stopped and the space program started. Astronauts (often test pilots or instructors) were obedient in space with rare exceptions (the Atlantis tile near-accident resulted in a rift between the astronauts and ground control during re-entry.)
- Certhas 5y ago
  Sure, but there is a big difference between "obedient and expendable" and highly trained to do risky things that might well kill you (and would certainly kill anyone not as highly trained). From a cynical resource investment perspective this is true, too: Infantry that you spend a week training, put in the cheapest boots possible and send to front to soak up bullets is expendable. Test pilots that are among the most highly trained pilots in your military and have decades of experience are not. I just don't think the picture where engineers build death traps and the generals order obedient pilots to fly them really applies to the type of experimental flight programs that eventually turned pilots into astronauts, where engineers and pilots would have worked closely with each other.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Yeah, I might have used too harsh words. I am not a native speaker and I am not always certain about emotional value of particular expressions. Experimental pilots of that age had a significant mortality, though. A realistic commander would have to take that into account.

inglor_cz 5y ago

These are now distant times for us. Back then, the overall tolerance for loss of life among pilots was much higher. Not least because there were either active conflicts going on (Vietnam) or very fresh memories of other conflicts with large death toll (WWII, Korea). I don't think that the first astronauts were as expendable as paper tissues, no, but their level of expendability almost certainly exceeded the norm of 2021. We are being much more careful now. Even civil aviation was much less safe than today and the expectations of deaths around anything that flew were simply higher. As far as obedience goes, I can believe that test pilots are on average less obedient than an average member of the military. They might be better motivated/manipulated through feelings of national pride etc., though.

redis_mlc 5y ago
> As far as obedience goes, I can believe that test pilots are on average less obedient than an average member of the military. They might be better motivated/manipulated through feelings of national pride etc., though. That's false for a number of reasons: 1) military test pilots followed orders. Chuck Yeager also said that it was a sense of duty that motivated him. Test pilots follow a "test profile", so there isn't a lot of time for showboating. If you watch some YT videos on military test pilot training, you'll understand how they're the opposite of cowboys. 2) civilian test pilots demanded 6-figure bonuses for test flights, so they were the "less obedient" ones. Though Scott Crossfield held back in the X-15 to avoid setting certain space records first by a civilian instead of the military, as requested. 3) the X-Planes program stopped and the space program started. Astronauts (often test pilots or instructors) were obedient in space with rare exceptions (the Atlantis tile near-accident resulted in a rift between the astronauts and ground control during re-entry.)
Certhas 5y ago
Sure, but there is a big difference between "obedient and expendable" and highly trained to do risky things that might well kill you (and would certainly kill anyone not as highly trained). From a cynical resource investment perspective this is true, too: Infantry that you spend a week training, put in the cheapest boots possible and send to front to soak up bullets is expendable. Test pilots that are among the most highly trained pilots in your military and have decades of experience are not. I just don't think the picture where engineers build death traps and the generals order obedient pilots to fly them really applies to the type of experimental flight programs that eventually turned pilots into astronauts, where engineers and pilots would have worked closely with each other.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Yeah, I might have used too harsh words. I am not a native speaker and I am not always certain about emotional value of particular expressions. Experimental pilots of that age had a significant mortality, though. A realistic commander would have to take that into account.