4 ms·

Luckily there are cheaper solutions for energy storage at grid scale thru CSP and molten salt storage.

VBprogrammer 5y ago
I really want CSP to succeed for no other reason than I find it much more exciting from a childish mechanically fascinating point of view. However, all indications at the moment are that solar + lithium storage is winning this battle. We are seeing larger farms with more installed storage every year. Perhaps CSP might flourish in certain niches, particularly those where waste heat and / or industrial high temperature processes are required in addition to electricity production.
- cinquemb 5y ago
  > We are seeing larger farms with more installed storage every year. Same is happening with CSP, just way less so in the US. CSP with MS storage is already cheaper on a LCOE basis than nuclear, esp factoring storage [0]. Lots of PV analysis never includes storage costs (and for obvious reasons). I think Li tech is probably better served for individual consumer applications (because of all the constraints) than at the grid level. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23589828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23589828
  - nl 5y ago
    Just about everything is cheaper than nuclear these days!
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      PV with Li storage isnt!
      - nl 5y ago
        Li storage is currently only really used for grid stability style installations at the gird-scale level (ie, as an alternative to gas-peaker plants). Li is convenient for residential installations, but it's possible other batteries are better at industrial and grid scale. Lazard's latest (2020) levelized energy cost comparison[1] shows the unsubsidised cost comparing like this: Nuclear: $129-$198 MWh (1st chart) Solar Wholesale PV + Storage: $188-$329 MWh. This excludes the (huge) further price reductions in PV noted in the linked article. The wholesale solar does include flow batteries as well as Li storage. The whole storage report[2] is worth reading[2]. [1] https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-and-levelized-cost-of-storage-2020/ https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-... [2] https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-of-storage-version-60-vf2.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-o...
        hulitu 5y ago
        For solar you need sun. I live in a region where the sun does not shine so often.
        cinquemb 5y ago
        Yeah, but you probably have roads, rail, and ports. It wouldn't be impossible to move vats of molten salt at scale to different locations from collection for usage via HEX and typical Rankine power cycle systems (i.e. steam).
        CyberDildonics 5y ago
        You think it would be efficient to move vats of molten salt on railroads "at scale" (at what scale?). Where does that expectation come from? Here is a very efficient method for moving power: a copper cable.
        cinquemb 5y ago
        > Here is a very efficient method for moving power: a copper cable. Right, texas natgas producers should just run a copper cable directly to places like Singapore!
nl 5y ago
CSP (concentrated solar power) isn't on the same price reduction curve as photovoltaic solar though. But at grid scale there are lots of options for storage. Pump solar is the obvious option.
- cinquemb 5y ago
  > CSP (concentrated solar power) isn't on the same price reduction curve as photovoltaic solar though. Esp if one ignores storage costs. > But at grid scale there are lots of options for storage. Agreed. > Pump solar is the obvious option. Disagree for CSP, but for hydro electric I'd agree.
  - Retric 5y ago
    Battery storage is on a steeper price reduction curve than CSP. So, Batteries + PV is on a steeper cost reduction curve than CSP. The cost of tracking PV + batteries is already cheaper than CSP when fitted to the current demand curve. What’s kept CSP limping along is you can use natural gas to supplement CSP while calling the project green. But from a pure cost basis it’s extremely expensive.
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      > The cost of tracking PV + batteries is already cheaper than CSP when fitted to the current demand curve. Really? Any cost stats for that, I'd love to see that. From Lazard's 2018 [1] and 2020 [2] reports, PV+storage (and only 1-4 hours of storage) is still more expensive for "In-front-of the meter" on the low end compared to CSP for storage on LCOE basis, and 2.5x-4.4x more expensive on the low end, for "Behind-the-meter" applications. > What’s kept CSP limping along is you can use natural gas to supplement CSP while calling the project green. And we can also cast light on the manufacturing process behind panels and how the materials are gathered for both panels and batteries… either way improvements are being made all around. [1] https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-120-vfinal.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-o... [2] https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-of-storage-version-60-vf2.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-o...

I really want CSP to succeed for no other reason than I find it much more exciting from a childish mechanically fascinating point of view. However, all indications at the moment are that solar + lithium storage is winning this battle. We are seeing larger farms with more installed storage every year. Perhaps CSP might flourish in certain niches, particularly those where waste heat and / or industrial high temperature processes are required in addition to electricity production.

cinquemb 5y ago
> We are seeing larger farms with more installed storage every year. Same is happening with CSP, just way less so in the US. CSP with MS storage is already cheaper on a LCOE basis than nuclear, esp factoring storage [0]. Lots of PV analysis never includes storage costs (and for obvious reasons). I think Li tech is probably better served for individual consumer applications (because of all the constraints) than at the grid level. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23589828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23589828
- nl 5y ago
  Just about everything is cheaper than nuclear these days!
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    PV with Li storage isnt!
    - nl 5y ago
      Li storage is currently only really used for grid stability style installations at the gird-scale level (ie, as an alternative to gas-peaker plants). Li is convenient for residential installations, but it's possible other batteries are better at industrial and grid scale. Lazard's latest (2020) levelized energy cost comparison[1] shows the unsubsidised cost comparing like this: Nuclear: $129-$198 MWh (1st chart) Solar Wholesale PV + Storage: $188-$329 MWh. This excludes the (huge) further price reductions in PV noted in the linked article. The wholesale solar does include flow batteries as well as Li storage. The whole storage report[2] is worth reading[2]. [1] https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-and-levelized-cost-of-storage-2020/ https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-... [2] https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-of-storage-version-60-vf2.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-o...
      - hulitu 5y ago
        For solar you need sun. I live in a region where the sun does not shine so often.
        cinquemb 5y ago
        Yeah, but you probably have roads, rail, and ports. It wouldn't be impossible to move vats of molten salt at scale to different locations from collection for usage via HEX and typical Rankine power cycle systems (i.e. steam).
        CyberDildonics 5y ago
        You think it would be efficient to move vats of molten salt on railroads "at scale" (at what scale?). Where does that expectation come from? Here is a very efficient method for moving power: a copper cable.
        cinquemb 5y ago
        > Here is a very efficient method for moving power: a copper cable. Right, texas natgas producers should just run a copper cable directly to places like Singapore!

nl 5y ago

CSP (concentrated solar power) isn't on the same price reduction curve as photovoltaic solar though. But at grid scale there are lots of options for storage. Pump solar is the obvious option.

cinquemb 5y ago
> CSP (concentrated solar power) isn't on the same price reduction curve as photovoltaic solar though. Esp if one ignores storage costs. > But at grid scale there are lots of options for storage. Agreed. > Pump solar is the obvious option. Disagree for CSP, but for hydro electric I'd agree.
- Retric 5y ago
  Battery storage is on a steeper price reduction curve than CSP. So, Batteries + PV is on a steeper cost reduction curve than CSP. The cost of tracking PV + batteries is already cheaper than CSP when fitted to the current demand curve. What’s kept CSP limping along is you can use natural gas to supplement CSP while calling the project green. But from a pure cost basis it’s extremely expensive.
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    > The cost of tracking PV + batteries is already cheaper than CSP when fitted to the current demand curve. Really? Any cost stats for that, I'd love to see that. From Lazard's 2018 [1] and 2020 [2] reports, PV+storage (and only 1-4 hours of storage) is still more expensive for "In-front-of the meter" on the low end compared to CSP for storage on LCOE basis, and 2.5x-4.4x more expensive on the low end, for "Behind-the-meter" applications. > What’s kept CSP limping along is you can use natural gas to supplement CSP while calling the project green. And we can also cast light on the manufacturing process behind panels and how the materials are gathered for both panels and batteries… either way improvements are being made all around. [1] https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-120-vfinal.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-o... [2] https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-of-storage-version-60-vf2.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/451566/lazards-levelized-cost-o...