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Not according to this detailed reporting by vice: https://www.vice.com/en/article/ep4xy7/what-does-defund-and-abolish-the-police-mean https://www.vice.com/en/a

by zepto 5y ago

Not according to this detailed reporting by vice: https://www.vice.com/en/article/ep4xy7/what-does-defund-and-abolish-the-police-mean https://www.vice.com/en/article/ep4xy7/what-does-defund-and-... “For the last week, mainstream publications and centrist thinkers have tied themselves in knots trying to explain that when activists say they want to defund the police, they don’t really mean that; “defund the police” is a slogan that actually means “make police departments smaller and more accountable,” they say. But many people who say “defund the police” mean exactly that—defund and abolish police departments, and use that funding to lift up communities.” Claiming it to be a clear cut distinction simply isn’t supported by the evidence.

ixacto 5y ago
The defund the policers are getting me to probably vote R in 2022/2024, even though IMO Trump will never be someone I’d vote for, in which case I’ll not vote at all. Democrats should have immediately distanced themselves from this movement.
joshuamorton 5y ago
Even that seems to suggest that 8 to abolition wishes to start by defunding police (but not abolishing! Those are clearly different: defunding is a step to abolishing, but 0 police funding would pretty clearly be abolished), perhaps with a long-term aim to reduce that funding to zero. But the way they use "defund" appears to mean decrease, not remove entirely, at least not yet.
- zepto 5y ago
  Defunding as a step to abolishing, means abolishing the police is the goal. Saying ‘at least not yet” doesn’t change the documented the fact that people use defund the police to mean abolish the police. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...
  - joshuamorton 5y ago
    I don't know how to tell you this any more clearly, but if "defunding the police is a step to abolishing the police" then "defunding the police" and "abolishing the police" must be distinct concepts. If they meant the same thing, you wouldn't need to do one first.
    - zepto 5y ago
      That’s like saying ‘putting toothpaste on your toothbrush’ and ‘brushing your teeth’ are two distinct concepts. Obviously they are, but when some people say they are putting toothpaste on their toothbrush, they are doing so because they plan on brushing their teeth. In just the same way, it is well documented that many people who say ‘defund the police’ mean completely defund them as a step towards abolishing them. There are people who are literally saying ‘when we say defund’ we mean abolish. We’re not talking about whether in some abstract world a semantic distinction is possible. We’re talking about how activists are using a political slogan. It’s hard to imagine you are really claiming that nobody who says ‘defund the police’ means to abolish the police.
      - joshuamorton 5y ago
        > It’s hard to imagine you are really claiming that nobody who says ‘defund the police’ means to abolish the police. You're playing semantic games with "means" here, you're using it as a verb, "intends to" and not "is a synonym for", as we have been previously in the conversation. Breaking it down, people who intend to abolish the police almost by definition also support defunding it. Because that's a step towards abolishment. So you're correct, I'm not claiming that "nobody who says ‘defund the police’ intends to abolish the police" I am saying that "nobody who says ‘defund the police’ is using it as a synonym for abolish the police" to trick people. > Obviously they are, but when some people say they are putting toothpaste on their toothbrush, they are doing so because they plan on brushing their teeth. This would be more compelling if there were people who felt that just putting toothpaste on the brush was the goal. But it isn't, because we both agree that there are some people who's only goal is to (partially) defund the police. I'm going to disengage now because I can't see how this was done in good faith.

by zepto 5y ago

ixacto 5y ago

The defund the policers are getting me to probably vote R in 2022/2024, even though IMO Trump will never be someone I’d vote for, in which case I’ll not vote at all. Democrats should have immediately distanced themselves from this movement.

joshuamorton 5y ago

Even that seems to suggest that 8 to abolition wishes to start by defunding police (but not abolishing! Those are clearly different: defunding is a step to abolishing, but 0 police funding would pretty clearly be abolished), perhaps with a long-term aim to reduce that funding to zero. But the way they use "defund" appears to mean decrease, not remove entirely, at least not yet.

zepto 5y ago
Defunding as a step to abolishing, means abolishing the police is the goal. Saying ‘at least not yet” doesn’t change the documented the fact that people use defund the police to mean abolish the police. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...
- joshuamorton 5y ago
  I don't know how to tell you this any more clearly, but if "defunding the police is a step to abolishing the police" then "defunding the police" and "abolishing the police" must be distinct concepts. If they meant the same thing, you wouldn't need to do one first.
  - zepto 5y ago
    That’s like saying ‘putting toothpaste on your toothbrush’ and ‘brushing your teeth’ are two distinct concepts. Obviously they are, but when some people say they are putting toothpaste on their toothbrush, they are doing so because they plan on brushing their teeth. In just the same way, it is well documented that many people who say ‘defund the police’ mean completely defund them as a step towards abolishing them. There are people who are literally saying ‘when we say defund’ we mean abolish. We’re not talking about whether in some abstract world a semantic distinction is possible. We’re talking about how activists are using a political slogan. It’s hard to imagine you are really claiming that nobody who says ‘defund the police’ means to abolish the police.
    - joshuamorton 5y ago
      > It’s hard to imagine you are really claiming that nobody who says ‘defund the police’ means to abolish the police. You're playing semantic games with "means" here, you're using it as a verb, "intends to" and not "is a synonym for", as we have been previously in the conversation. Breaking it down, people who intend to abolish the police almost by definition also support defunding it. Because that's a step towards abolishment. So you're correct, I'm not claiming that "nobody who says ‘defund the police’ intends to abolish the police" I am saying that "nobody who says ‘defund the police’ is using it as a synonym for abolish the police" to trick people. > Obviously they are, but when some people say they are putting toothpaste on their toothbrush, they are doing so because they plan on brushing their teeth. This would be more compelling if there were people who felt that just putting toothpaste on the brush was the goal. But it isn't, because we both agree that there are some people who's only goal is to (partially) defund the police. I'm going to disengage now because I can't see how this was done in good faith.