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Who gets to gatekeep what the movement is actually about? I've seen quite a few at protests with signs saying "abolish the police". Seems like those people don'

Who gets to gatekeep what the movement is actually about? I've seen quite a few at protests with signs saying "abolish the police". Seems like those people don't want police to focus on security. AFAIK there hasn't been any polls to see preferences for the desired level of defunding w/in the movement. I wouldn't be surprised if 100% defunding was a plurality (but not a majority)

harimau777 5y ago
The way that I would approach it is to try to take the strongest version of a given argument; particularly if that is the argument that the leaders/spokesmen in a movement are making.
- MikeUt 5y ago
  It's certainly not the way disfavored movements or ideas are handled.
  - harimau777 5y ago
    What do you mean? Outside of trolls, it seems like a common approach.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> I've seen quite a few at protests with signs saying "abolish the police". The abolish/disband faction is a different faction from the defund faction, sharing with the other that both believe the reform cycle where police problems are dealt woth by increasing budgets for retraining or other reform measures, reducing resources for other services, which results in police roles expanding, resulting in new police problems from inserting armed law enforcement into nee and inappropriate roles needs to be broken. The “defund” crowd says, lets wind that the other way and drive non-core roles and the funding to go with them to agencies outside of the police departments, so that the police department is focussed on roles that require armed law enforcement. The “disband/abolish” crowd says lets go further, and redesign community services without an all-encompassing centralized paramilitary law enforcement service, with enforcement arms where necessary within agencies with focuses other than “law enforcement”. (There's a fringe within the disband/abolish faction that would eliminate armed law enforcement as a local government function entirely, but they aren't typical of the disband/abolish movement much less the defund movement or an umbrella including both defund and disband/abolish.)
- ixacto 5y ago
  This kinda feels like gatekeeping the “defund” movement. When I walk by the 2MM house on Capitol Hill in Seattle with the “yes we actually mean defund the police” it’s just a bunch of misguided upper class people who are too sheltered to really know danger in their lives.
- zepto 5y ago
  > The abolish/disband faction is a different faction from the defund faction Yes, but both use the slogan ‘defund the police’.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Yes, but both use the slogan ‘defund the police’. No, the abolish/disband faction tends to use “abolish (or disband) the police”.
    - zepto 5y ago
      Not according to this detailed reporting by vice: https://www.vice.com/en/article/ep4xy7/what-does-defund-and-abolish-the-police-mean https://www.vice.com/en/article/ep4xy7/what-does-defund-and-... “For the last week, mainstream publications and centrist thinkers have tied themselves in knots trying to explain that when activists say they want to defund the police, they don’t really mean that; “defund the police” is a slogan that actually means “make police departments smaller and more accountable,” they say. But many people who say “defund the police” mean exactly that—defund and abolish police departments, and use that funding to lift up communities.” Claiming it to be a clear cut distinction simply isn’t supported by the evidence.
      - ixacto 5y ago
        The defund the policers are getting me to probably vote R in 2022/2024, even though IMO Trump will never be someone I’d vote for, in which case I’ll not vote at all. Democrats should have immediately distanced themselves from this movement.
      - 5y ago
tolbish 5y ago
Wouldn't you rather the police focus on security rather than try to tacke every societal ill? One doesn't need to be a part of any labeled movement to agree with that.

harimau777 5y ago

The way that I would approach it is to try to take the strongest version of a given argument; particularly if that is the argument that the leaders/spokesmen in a movement are making.

MikeUt 5y ago
It's certainly not the way disfavored movements or ideas are handled.
- harimau777 5y ago
  What do you mean? Outside of trolls, it seems like a common approach.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> I've seen quite a few at protests with signs saying "abolish the police". The abolish/disband faction is a different faction from the defund faction, sharing with the other that both believe the reform cycle where police problems are dealt woth by increasing budgets for retraining or other reform measures, reducing resources for other services, which results in police roles expanding, resulting in new police problems from inserting armed law enforcement into nee and inappropriate roles needs to be broken. The “defund” crowd says, lets wind that the other way and drive non-core roles and the funding to go with them to agencies outside of the police departments, so that the police department is focussed on roles that require armed law enforcement. The “disband/abolish” crowd says lets go further, and redesign community services without an all-encompassing centralized paramilitary law enforcement service, with enforcement arms where necessary within agencies with focuses other than “law enforcement”. (There's a fringe within the disband/abolish faction that would eliminate armed law enforcement as a local government function entirely, but they aren't typical of the disband/abolish movement much less the defund movement or an umbrella including both defund and disband/abolish.)

ixacto 5y ago
This kinda feels like gatekeeping the “defund” movement. When I walk by the 2MM house on Capitol Hill in Seattle with the “yes we actually mean defund the police” it’s just a bunch of misguided upper class people who are too sheltered to really know danger in their lives.
zepto 5y ago
> The abolish/disband faction is a different faction from the defund faction Yes, but both use the slogan ‘defund the police’.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Yes, but both use the slogan ‘defund the police’. No, the abolish/disband faction tends to use “abolish (or disband) the police”.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Not according to this detailed reporting by vice: https://www.vice.com/en/article/ep4xy7/what-does-defund-and-abolish-the-police-mean https://www.vice.com/en/article/ep4xy7/what-does-defund-and-... “For the last week, mainstream publications and centrist thinkers have tied themselves in knots trying to explain that when activists say they want to defund the police, they don’t really mean that; “defund the police” is a slogan that actually means “make police departments smaller and more accountable,” they say. But many people who say “defund the police” mean exactly that—defund and abolish police departments, and use that funding to lift up communities.” Claiming it to be a clear cut distinction simply isn’t supported by the evidence.
    - ixacto 5y ago
      The defund the policers are getting me to probably vote R in 2022/2024, even though IMO Trump will never be someone I’d vote for, in which case I’ll not vote at all. Democrats should have immediately distanced themselves from this movement.
    - 5y ago

tolbish 5y ago

Wouldn't you rather the police focus on security rather than try to tacke every societal ill? One doesn't need to be a part of any labeled movement to agree with that.