4 ms·

Now we have electricians charging as much as software agencies. HVAC installation costs as much as a car in warmer regions. General handyman work outclasses a

Now we have electricians charging as much as software agencies. HVAC installation costs as much as a car in warmer regions. General handyman work outclasses all retail jobs, but you don't hear about people with two bachelors doing that type of work like you do at a Starbucks.

jacoblambda 5y ago
I think part of this is because skilled trades are often more physically taxing than "traditional" college degree desk jobs. I'm inclined towards the skilled trade side of things because I like getting my hands dirty but I understand why people wouldn't want to do a job that has you in a shop or working out in the heat, cold, or rain on a regular basis. Not to mention I imagine the injury and/or casualty rate is much higher for many trades compared to desk jobs. TLDR: We obviously need both and they are equally good fields but I completely understand the perceived higher valuation for the safer, less physically taxing albeit often more boring and sedimentary jobs.
- HPsquared 5y ago
  Retail jobs are often physically taxing also - shelf stacking for example.
- glennpratt 5y ago
  I think society does a poor job communicating the actual lack of safety that comes from sedentary, physically repetitive jobs. I wouldn't qualify for workers compensation for my herniated disc because I don't know when it started or why. But it's probably from sitting in front of a computer. Asking coworkers over 35, they almost all have injuries from computer work. Maintaining weight and strength while a huge chunk of your day is sedentary is a big chore too.
  - jacoblambda 5y ago
    I completely agree. Of course as you say the damage from sedentary jobs is a lot less visible and much harder to pinpoint. I'd argue the public perceives sedentary jobs as much safer because of this even if they may not be in reality.
- olleromam91 5y ago
  Personally I'd rather have a sedimentary job than an igneous or metamorphic one...
  - jacoblambda 5y ago
    lol. I realised I made that typo right after the time to edit elapsed.
Robotbeat 5y ago
General handyman work is not trivial. It's physical and requires a lot of tacit knowledge and perseverance. A regular 9-5 Starbucks job is, by comparison, pretty easy-in, easy-out (which doesn't mean we shouldn't pay people a reasonable minimum wage even for Starbucks... at very least $12.50/hour or something like it was in the late 1960s, if not $15 or $21/hour like it would be if we adjusted for overall productivity growth).
- kortilla 5y ago
  > if not $15 or $21/hour like it would be if we adjusted for overall productivity growth Why would you ever consider doing that? Livable wage discussions are about what’s livable, not how much value the job provides.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    Livable wage discussions are often also about inequality and the broad sharing of societal-level progress. I think one reason Americans have become less optimistic about technology and progress is the benefits have not been shared as widely. Fixing minimum wage to productivity increases would help renew the social contract of people allowing (sometimes disruptive) innovation and progress. But sure. Let’s tie federal minimum wage to inflation and then do local cost-of-living adjustments, say make minimum wage equal to, say, three times the typical rent for a two bedroom apartment in the area. That way places that might really struggle with $21/hour minimum wage (like Wichita, Kansas) but have low housing cost would be able to maintain adequate employment levels and attract business investment. (It would also force NIMBY-heavy communities like San Jose, California actually have to pay a consequence for extreme housing costs in the form of higher wage costs for local low-skill services… Encouraging more housing to be built.)
chongli 5y ago
I think a big part of it is social status and marriageability. There is a social stigma against the trades that relegates its workers to low social status. PhD’s in history might struggle to feed themselves on their meagre lecturer salaries but they can insist that you address them as Dr. A plumber might make a lot more money but they’ll never be able to shake the association with dirty, unpleasant work, despite the fact that a great deal of plumbers work in new installations for construction rather than household repair.
- andrewmcwatters 5y ago
  It's temporary on a generational timeline. When I think of young and old PhDs alike, I don't think of high status individuals. I think of people who spent too long in academia. Most of them don't contribute breakthrough insights to their field in their lifetime, but rather make indentations to broader collective knowledge. That's not high status to me. I think more highly of someone who owns their own plumbing business. An employer has more status to me because they command labor. A PhD graduate will most of the time be contributing deep narrow insight to a larger organization, not using their studies for entrepreneurial pursuits.
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  "I think a big part of it is social status and marriageability. There is a social stigma against the trades that relegates its workers to low social status." This is fast changing. The days of "ooh they work in an office" vs. your average handyman are mostly gone US metro areas. If anything, electricians, mechanics, carpenters, firefighters, etc. are seen as "manly men" with the surviving traditional masculinity compared to most men in metro areas.
barbecue_sauce 5y ago
Technically, Starbucks is food service, not retail.
- andrewmcwatters 5y ago
  Yes, but that's not my point, they're of the same labor class to me. They're also literally the same labor category in Census documents or documents released by the DOJ.

jacoblambda 5y ago

I think part of this is because skilled trades are often more physically taxing than "traditional" college degree desk jobs. I'm inclined towards the skilled trade side of things because I like getting my hands dirty but I understand why people wouldn't want to do a job that has you in a shop or working out in the heat, cold, or rain on a regular basis. Not to mention I imagine the injury and/or casualty rate is much higher for many trades compared to desk jobs. TLDR: We obviously need both and they are equally good fields but I completely understand the perceived higher valuation for the safer, less physically taxing albeit often more boring and sedimentary jobs.

HPsquared 5y ago
Retail jobs are often physically taxing also - shelf stacking for example.
glennpratt 5y ago
I think society does a poor job communicating the actual lack of safety that comes from sedentary, physically repetitive jobs. I wouldn't qualify for workers compensation for my herniated disc because I don't know when it started or why. But it's probably from sitting in front of a computer. Asking coworkers over 35, they almost all have injuries from computer work. Maintaining weight and strength while a huge chunk of your day is sedentary is a big chore too.
- jacoblambda 5y ago
  I completely agree. Of course as you say the damage from sedentary jobs is a lot less visible and much harder to pinpoint. I'd argue the public perceives sedentary jobs as much safer because of this even if they may not be in reality.
olleromam91 5y ago
Personally I'd rather have a sedimentary job than an igneous or metamorphic one...
- jacoblambda 5y ago
  lol. I realised I made that typo right after the time to edit elapsed.

Robotbeat 5y ago

General handyman work is not trivial. It's physical and requires a lot of tacit knowledge and perseverance. A regular 9-5 Starbucks job is, by comparison, pretty easy-in, easy-out (which doesn't mean we shouldn't pay people a reasonable minimum wage even for Starbucks... at very least $12.50/hour or something like it was in the late 1960s, if not $15 or $21/hour like it would be if we adjusted for overall productivity growth).

kortilla 5y ago
> if not $15 or $21/hour like it would be if we adjusted for overall productivity growth Why would you ever consider doing that? Livable wage discussions are about what’s livable, not how much value the job provides.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Livable wage discussions are often also about inequality and the broad sharing of societal-level progress. I think one reason Americans have become less optimistic about technology and progress is the benefits have not been shared as widely. Fixing minimum wage to productivity increases would help renew the social contract of people allowing (sometimes disruptive) innovation and progress. But sure. Let’s tie federal minimum wage to inflation and then do local cost-of-living adjustments, say make minimum wage equal to, say, three times the typical rent for a two bedroom apartment in the area. That way places that might really struggle with $21/hour minimum wage (like Wichita, Kansas) but have low housing cost would be able to maintain adequate employment levels and attract business investment. (It would also force NIMBY-heavy communities like San Jose, California actually have to pay a consequence for extreme housing costs in the form of higher wage costs for local low-skill services… Encouraging more housing to be built.)

chongli 5y ago

I think a big part of it is social status and marriageability. There is a social stigma against the trades that relegates its workers to low social status. PhD’s in history might struggle to feed themselves on their meagre lecturer salaries but they can insist that you address them as Dr. A plumber might make a lot more money but they’ll never be able to shake the association with dirty, unpleasant work, despite the fact that a great deal of plumbers work in new installations for construction rather than household repair.

andrewmcwatters 5y ago
It's temporary on a generational timeline. When I think of young and old PhDs alike, I don't think of high status individuals. I think of people who spent too long in academia. Most of them don't contribute breakthrough insights to their field in their lifetime, but rather make indentations to broader collective knowledge. That's not high status to me. I think more highly of someone who owns their own plumbing business. An employer has more status to me because they command labor. A PhD graduate will most of the time be contributing deep narrow insight to a larger organization, not using their studies for entrepreneurial pursuits.
reducesuffering 5y ago
"I think a big part of it is social status and marriageability. There is a social stigma against the trades that relegates its workers to low social status." This is fast changing. The days of "ooh they work in an office" vs. your average handyman are mostly gone US metro areas. If anything, electricians, mechanics, carpenters, firefighters, etc. are seen as "manly men" with the surviving traditional masculinity compared to most men in metro areas.

barbecue_sauce 5y ago

Technically, Starbucks is food service, not retail.

andrewmcwatters 5y ago
Yes, but that's not my point, they're of the same labor class to me. They're also literally the same labor category in Census documents or documents released by the DOJ.