4 ms·

That's not a position the huge majority of doctors and scientists agree with. Why should anyone believe you instead of them?

dQw4w9WgXcQ 5y ago
Are we saying vaccines are not the solution?
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  The majority of the world is not vaccinated. Hell, in some US states the majority is not vaccinated.
  - wussboy 5y ago
    I think you’re talking past each other. Is the virus still with us (your point)? Yes. Do we have a potent and effective vaccine which, for vaccinated persons means the virus is no longer a threat (the other person’s point)? Yes.
    - hanniabu 5y ago
      Still not enough vaccinated for herd immunity. And considering the effectiveness of the vaccine drops from ~95% to ~65% 6 months after (around more for a majority of people) then it's looking further from all clear.
      - rhino369 5y ago
        We were vaccinated enough for heard immunity from the original variants. That’s why infections were cratering even in places with no social distancing rules. Delta variant is probably going to change that. Some parts of the country will have a delta wave. But it’s going to be mostly in vaccinated people with serious infections.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      Do we have enough supplies of those vaccines yet, worldwide? Have we vaccinated sufficient people yet, worldwide? Sadly, no and no. Even in many US states it's also not enough yet. And many countries must be looking at their situation regarding vaccine production in general, particularly dependency on other countries, and finding that to be something that they want to secure for themselves. > for vaccinated persons means the virus is no longer a threat I would call it a much diminished threat, which would be further diminished by vaccinating more other people, rather than "no threat".
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    Outside the northeast, US states are barely above 50%. https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-r... (link says march-15, page is updated through July 8)
    - rhino369 5y ago
      You can probably add another 15%-20% from recovered immunity.
fossuser 5y ago
This straight appeal to authority is particularly weak given the last year or so. - lab leak hypothesis - “masks don’t work” - “not transmissible via the air” - “it’s not a pandemic, don’t panic” The authority has shown its capacity to be wrong here repeatedly and in obvious ways. This isn’t direct support of what OP said, but appeal to authority does little for me. The specifics matter.
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  The appeal to scientific authority is only weak if you are looking for a way to downplay the virus. How many scientific authorities were saying "It's not a pandemic, don't panic"?
  - fossuser 5y ago
    I’m not looking to downplay the virus - the initial downplay came from Vox and the NYT (journalists, not scientists - but often pretending they’re delivering scientific consensus): https://medium.com/@balajis/citations-for-the-recode-handshake-debunking-b2751adc7e69 https://medium.com/@balajis/citations-for-the-recode-handsha... They also framed virus fears at the time as racism and complained about border closures. The “masks don’t work” arguments came from scientific authority though. Same with “not transmitted via the air” and dismissing the lab leak hypothesis. I’m not arguing with a partisan position - partisanship is what lead to a lot of dumb positions from scientific authority (and politicians too obviously).
    - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
      You are citing points whereby there was confusion about the scientific consensus, but what has been the overarching consensus this whole time? It hasn't been masks don't work, it hasn't been social distancing doesn't work and it hasn't been "not transmitted via the air".
      - fossuser 5y ago
        Respectfully, I think you’re cherry picking the current (more correct) understanding and missing what the consensus was at the time with the benefit of hindsight. At the time “masks don’t work, “it’s not airborne”, and especially “it wasn’t a lab leak” were the overarching consensus - it was a handful of minority voices that pushed back on this, and they were not the authority. The authorities largely failed us, my guess is because of political partisanship and motivated reasoning (along with a weaker MSM with bad journalists and some CCP pressure on WHO). It was largely specific individual voices that were more correct at each step, rather than authority. The trick is you had to be able to tell which ones.

dQw4w9WgXcQ 5y ago

Are we saying vaccines are not the solution?

Ensorceled 5y ago
The majority of the world is not vaccinated. Hell, in some US states the majority is not vaccinated.
- wussboy 5y ago
  I think you’re talking past each other. Is the virus still with us (your point)? Yes. Do we have a potent and effective vaccine which, for vaccinated persons means the virus is no longer a threat (the other person’s point)? Yes.
  - hanniabu 5y ago
    Still not enough vaccinated for herd immunity. And considering the effectiveness of the vaccine drops from ~95% to ~65% 6 months after (around more for a majority of people) then it's looking further from all clear.
    - rhino369 5y ago
      We were vaccinated enough for heard immunity from the original variants. That’s why infections were cratering even in places with no social distancing rules. Delta variant is probably going to change that. Some parts of the country will have a delta wave. But it’s going to be mostly in vaccinated people with serious infections.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    Do we have enough supplies of those vaccines yet, worldwide? Have we vaccinated sufficient people yet, worldwide? Sadly, no and no. Even in many US states it's also not enough yet. And many countries must be looking at their situation regarding vaccine production in general, particularly dependency on other countries, and finding that to be something that they want to secure for themselves. > for vaccinated persons means the virus is no longer a threat I would call it a much diminished threat, which would be further diminished by vaccinating more other people, rather than "no threat".
- maxerickson 5y ago
  Outside the northeast, US states are barely above 50%. https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-percentage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-r... (link says march-15, page is updated through July 8)
  - rhino369 5y ago
    You can probably add another 15%-20% from recovered immunity.

fossuser 5y ago

This straight appeal to authority is particularly weak given the last year or so. - lab leak hypothesis - “masks don’t work” - “not transmissible via the air” - “it’s not a pandemic, don’t panic” The authority has shown its capacity to be wrong here repeatedly and in obvious ways. This isn’t direct support of what OP said, but appeal to authority does little for me. The specifics matter.

x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
The appeal to scientific authority is only weak if you are looking for a way to downplay the virus. How many scientific authorities were saying "It's not a pandemic, don't panic"?
- fossuser 5y ago
  I’m not looking to downplay the virus - the initial downplay came from Vox and the NYT (journalists, not scientists - but often pretending they’re delivering scientific consensus): https://medium.com/@balajis/citations-for-the-recode-handshake-debunking-b2751adc7e69 https://medium.com/@balajis/citations-for-the-recode-handsha... They also framed virus fears at the time as racism and complained about border closures. The “masks don’t work” arguments came from scientific authority though. Same with “not transmitted via the air” and dismissing the lab leak hypothesis. I’m not arguing with a partisan position - partisanship is what lead to a lot of dumb positions from scientific authority (and politicians too obviously).
  - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
    You are citing points whereby there was confusion about the scientific consensus, but what has been the overarching consensus this whole time? It hasn't been masks don't work, it hasn't been social distancing doesn't work and it hasn't been "not transmitted via the air".
    - fossuser 5y ago
      Respectfully, I think you’re cherry picking the current (more correct) understanding and missing what the consensus was at the time with the benefit of hindsight. At the time “masks don’t work, “it’s not airborne”, and especially “it wasn’t a lab leak” were the overarching consensus - it was a handful of minority voices that pushed back on this, and they were not the authority. The authorities largely failed us, my guess is because of political partisanship and motivated reasoning (along with a weaker MSM with bad journalists and some CCP pressure on WHO). It was largely specific individual voices that were more correct at each step, rather than authority. The trick is you had to be able to tell which ones.