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There aren’t any measurable elements of personality that are fixed. Personality changes as you age. I’ve witnessed a reversal in each of the Myers-Briggs marker

• kristofferR 5y ago
  Agree! One of the most harmful beliefs about the concept of intro-/extroversion is that it is something you are and not something you do. Many people limit themselves massively because of how they've labeled themselves. Especially in "strong introverts", the label is often used as a convenient excuse for not going through the often painful process of trying to improve their confidence skills and social skills. "I'm an introvert" is often the easy way out.
  • tboyd47 5y ago
    Aye. It’s funny, perusing the other comments in this thread, how attached people are to these labels, which really have no factual basis at all. We choose the stories that we tell about ourselves; yet we act as if the stories chose us.
    • MattGaiser 5y ago
      I don't think it is so much attachment to labels, but rather that people use these articles to deny our preferences. "Humans are social creatures, so you will be happier" is what people reply whenever I choose to work at a hackathon alone, or prefer to skip all the social events at the office, or contemplate working remotely on a permanent basis, or back when I was in school and would go to the library to read rather than play with other children.
    • SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
      I wouldn’t go so extreme with this. Sometimes stories do choose us. I don’t know anyone who got to choose the circumstances of their birth, for example, or the lucky breaks and unlucky breaks that happen along the way of living. Sometimes they drastically affect our story.
      • kristofferR 5y ago
        Well, the elements of the story at least. How we chose to write the story, with the elements we're handed, is our decision. We often can't affect what happens in the outside world, but how we interpret what happens is up to us.
    • kristofferR 5y ago
      The stories we tell about ourselves also massively shape ourselves. We always act how we think, so people should choose stories that are beneficial instead of detrimental. "I'm a introvert who can't be comfortable around other people" and "My social skills and confidence aren't where they should be, I need to keep working on that" are two similar stories with totally different outcomes.
      • sokoloff 5y ago
        I don’t see introversion as “can’t be comfortable around other people” so much as “doesn’t have strong desire to be around other people” (or the best explanation I’ve heard is “being around other people takes energy rather than gives energy”). I’m perfectly content to not be around other people for very long periods of time, like months at a time, other than buying groceries/supplies. Doesn’t bother me a bit, while it would drive my wife and kids crazy. I’m also perfectly fine when I am around other people, so in my case at least, it’s just a (lack of) preference rather than an inability.
    • areeh 5y ago
      As someone who is somewhat dismissive of labels, I've started thinking more about this. In a context/culture where the way you act isn't as accepted/appreciated it seems labels are a useful thing to defend your way and for people to rally around (since a single term for something makes it easier to recognize, for instance). I think it's natural for them to show up in the kind of culture clash that happens when groups of people who don't feel as accepted/appreciated try to make a positive space for themselves. Sorry for the vague wording
  • rozab 5y ago
    This isn't very HN friendly content and certainly is not meant to be taken at face value, but here's a vid that kind of captures the zeitgeist of the introvert trend: https://youtu.be/ikw4V_x-CFI https://youtu.be/ikw4V_x-CFI
    • tboyd47 5y ago
      I can’t tell if that guy is being sarcastic or not.
    • dogorman 5y ago
      This guy seems to be a believer in "punching down" humor. He's doing it under the guise of tough love to help people, but he's clearly enjoying it way too much. This is a vile video; I sure hope you've not ruined my youtube suggestions by getting me to watch this.
    • Graffur 5y ago
      Being an introvert doesn't mean you don't like making eye contact or most of the other things that youtuber is saying.
      • rozab 5y ago
        No, that's the point he's trying to make. He's commenting on the label being used by a certain group of people as an explanation/justification for their lack of social skills and contact. If you go on the r/introvert subreddit there's a load of people talking about their crippling loneliness and social anxiety. These people crave social contact, they don't seem like introverts to me, but they seem to have convinced themselves they have some personality trait that makes social connection impossible.
        • Graffur 5y ago
          He's failing then
  • tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    You can definitely improve your social skills, I was desperately shy as a teenager but managed to improve that once I started working. However I have always felt that is a mask I wear, it's not who I really am and I find it draining when I put it on. It appears to me the two things (social skills and introversion) are somewhat orthogonal.
  • erikerikson 5y ago
    This feels brutal and mean to read. It seems that you're telling me my feelings, preferences, and way of being are invalid. Not only that but that I deserve what I've experienced because I have not overlaid my sincere core with the model proposed to me. The world is often structured to heavily advantage highly social individuals. You're right that being less social or even asocial can bear a large accumulative cost. Still, many of us live in our ways because we've followed our feelings and sensations. Trying to mold to the ways of interaction and time allocation according to the norms of a population that feels alien is wasteful. Instead, I spend my life exploring into less socially determined ways of being that seem a more functional and thoughtful in my experience. They're customized to me and feel great. In fact, frequently some of my more social friends express a sense of relief and comfort when spending time with me. It feels more emotionally clean, whole, and loving to them. They love it but the population didn't teach them how to be this way and they also don't know how to navigate the divide to try living in this way more broadly. They appear to recognize it's unhealthy but also be tied to and habituated to the way of things so that psychologically bridging is too great an effort. Being an introvert is definitely no easy way out. Extroverts tell me there's something wrong with me in lots of little ways and have excluded me regularly from the little clubs that form which has reduced my career trajectory and the rewards I receive from society (though I have still become greatly rewarded). Most concretely, I suspect that I would have had much more capital funding available for my passion projects if I had been more sociable. I would also suggest that the world would be a better place to live if I had received more funding but that's highly speculative.
    • kristofferR 5y ago
      You seem overly attached to the label of being an introvert. The whole post is slightly confusing to me in fact. If you've concluded that other things than increasing social skills are more worthwhile pursuits for you in your life, then that's great. You do you. However, you can't then also complain in the next breath about what your lack of social skills, that you won't spend an effort acquiring, exclude you from. "Still, many of us live in our ways because we've followed our feelings and sensations." is slightly problematic in my view. The hardest things to change are the one that conflicts with feelings. It doesn't feel good to start exercising it you are overweight for example. Socializing with low social skills and confidence doesn't feel good either. I'd argue that both are worthwhile efforts, even though we need to combat our feelings and fears in order to do it. Again, if you're totally happy right now that's awesome! Just don't let "I'm an introvert" be your "I'm big-boned" type of excuse for not changing anything if something could be improved by change.
  • cpuguy83 5y ago
    Your lived experience is not anything like any other human on this planet. I would not presume to know what other people experience or discount their perception of, particularly of themselves and what makes them feel good or feel bad.
  • TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    You could just as well argue that "strong extroverts" are using a convenient excuse to avoid the painful process of not getting to know and appreciate themselves on their own terms. It's certainly true - actually tautological - that introverts are missing social opportunities. Is it impossible that extroverts are missing experiences of equivalent value?
    • fshr 5y ago
      Do you think most introverts are “getting to know and appreciate themselves on their own terms”? I don’t think most people are introspective while alone - not even most introverts.
  • fumar 5y ago
    You are right people shouldn't be prescribed labels. You think people are limiting themselves because of labels. Isn't it the other way around? People act in such a way that they believe a label describes their personality or behavioral pattern? I think you are the one mislabeling people. Being an introvert doesn't mean social skills are low. You might work with or be friends with strong introverts and have no idea. There is also this idea that as an extrovert you have great social skills. I know plenty of people who crave social experiences, attention, or constant companionship that have poor social skills. You know them – they may say hurtful things, claim their own jokes as funny and laugh at them, disregard other people's feelings, lack the ability to control their vocalizations or comments, get in people's faces, create distractions, try to control conversations, etc. You get the point. Should those "strong extroverts" work hard at improving their social skills? Sometimes that means not talking or seeking solace in their own thoughts before entering a an existing social gathering.
    • jlokier 5y ago
      Thank you for highlighting that extrovert behaviour can be accompanied by poor social skills and introverts can be highly skilled socially. It seems to be a moderately common assumption in discussions like these that the extrovert is the one with social skills and the introvert finds them difficult, but the reverse is often true. Think about someone who is often out and seems to be consistently loud, boisterous and showing poor social awareness to the point of irritating others in social settings. That's a sign of poor social skills that I'd associate with extroversion. Compare with someone who is quiet, thoughtful, and rarely seen, but when they are seen they seem to be caring, interesting and listen thoughtfully and engage with each person they talk with, leaving a positive impression each time. That's high social skill.
  • sidlls 5y ago
    Sorry if this is uncharitable, but your comment reads strongly like something an oblivious extrovert would write. Consider this statement: “she’s only a lesbian because she hasn’t been fucked the right way by a guy” and how horribly awful and wrong it is. It’s the same as your comment.
  • Clubber 5y ago
    So I go back and forth. Sometimes I'm an extrovert, like when I've had a few beers and at a party. Sometimes I'm an introvert. For extroverts, socializing is like air, they need it to feel healthy (or to live in some cases). For introverts, socializing is like water. You can swim in it or tread water, but it takes effort and you tire quickly. Sure it can be refreshing sometimes, but it wears you out and you don't wanna do it every day. That's about the best way I can sum it up for how it works in my mind.
  • bluefirebrand 5y ago
    Introversion has nothing to do with social skills or confidence. Being an introvert is not the same as being shy or awkward. Introversion is a measure of what effect socializing has on you, and how comfortable you are being alone. Extroverts dislike being alone, Introverts like it. Extroverts feel energized by social interaction, Introverts feel drained by it. That's it. I'm tired of these ignorant "Introverts are just socially awkward and if they just went out more they would be cured" type takes.
    • kristofferR 5y ago
      Here's the thing. I used to be an extreme introvert by all standards, and preferred being alone. Social interaction was extremely tiring. Now I'm comfortable both with people and alone. However, the real question is why it was tiring. It was tiring because I wasn't comfortable, it wasn't second nature. It took extra effort, just like all other the things we do that we aren't good at doing. When it eventually became easier and took less effort, it naturally also became less tiring. I wish we could just stop with the stupid binary introvert/extrovert terminology. It's on the same pseudo-scientific level as saying people are left-brained or right-brained, people aren't that binary or simple. If I, 10 years ago, had just said to myself "I'm an introvert, social interactions aren't my thing and they make me tired" I'd likely be significantly less happy than I'm now.
      • sidlls 5y ago
        You're setting up a strawman version of intro/extroversion discuss, and missing what everyone else is telling you.
  • jm__87 5y ago
    I think it depends on how you define what an introvert is. By your definition, it is someone who lacks confidence and social skills. I see a lot of people use the word introvert to mean "prefers spending time alone to socializing". This person may have all the confidence and social skills in the world but just prefers spending time alone, for whatever reason.
  • macromaniac 5y ago
    I don't think introversion comes from not wanting to learn to interact, but from not seeing a reason to. Anecdotally, I switched from introvert to extravert when I changed the focus of the conversation from knowledge transfer to just trying to have fun, I'm sure everyone has their own reason X for being introverted or extroverted.
  • lamontcg 5y ago
    > One of the most harmful beliefs about the concept of intro-/extroversion is that it is something you are and not something you do. Nope. I'm not neurotypical. Stop trying to gaslight me into thinking I'm flawed because I'm not extroverted please. This rationale is the gay conversion therapy for introverts.
  • ball_of_lint 5y ago
    I am an introvert with reasonable social skills and a healthy amount of social interaction in my life (3+ nights a week spent with friends). Being an introvert doesn't mean I cannot do or enjoy social things, it means that social things require effort+energy from me and I want an appropriate amount of time spent alone to recharge afterward.
• perardi 5y ago
  Agreed on the mutability of these traits. I have definitely become more of an extrovert as I’ve gotten older. Only child of only children growing up in a rural area…kind of an incubator for introversion. But having lived in a big city, been out in the world, seen what there it to be seen, I’ve become far more outgoing. [also maybe drugs, i dunno] And I am coming out of the pandemic times rarin’ to go. Arguably too much—I am purposefully having a slow weekend after the madcap last 2 weeks.
• dboreham 5y ago
  Attachment style probably doesn't change.
• C-x_C-f 5y ago
  It's incredible to me how we see NLP models with billions of parameters struggling to act human even on paper, yet somehow many influential people still claim that the Myers-Briggs type indicator can give predictive value to a 4-bit model of human personality. I get that most people are likely unaware of the measures of complexity involved in these issues, but at the very least I would expect today's intellectual trendsetters to stop giving any further validation to such an obsolete piece of pseudoscience once and for all.
  • mason55 5y ago
    And if you are going to talk about personality traits then at LEAST talk about ones with some scientific backing (the Big 5)
    • Noumenon72 5y ago
      The Big 5 replicate, but that's about all; they don't predict, work across cultures, and they're not really orthogonal. https://carcinisation.com/2020/07/04/the-ongoing-accomplishment-of-the-big-five/ https://carcinisation.com/2020/07/04/the-ongoing-accomplishm...
    • pseudalopex 5y ago
      4 of the Big 5 traits correlate with the Myers Briggs traits.
  • ravi-delia 5y ago
    Myers-Briggs obviously doesn't represent some fundamental truth about how personalities vary, but I'm willing to bet that no matter how you ask people questions about themselves there will be useful conclusions to draw. Certainly some people are more sociable than others, some more detail-oriented than others, and vary on any other traits you care to name. Given that they are all probably hopelessly correlated with each other, and with whatever variables are actually controlling things underneath, it would be difficult to come up with a test that didn't say something. On a far more speculative note, I bet most of the complex parts of the brain don't vary much between people, or at least don't play into personality much. That's not backed up by anything though, just an idle thought.
• GuB-42 5y ago
  I don't think personality changes that much. People can get more social skills as they age, regardless of their personality, and it may appear as extraversion, but I don't think of it as a core change. You don't have to enjoy socializing to do it, just like you don't need to love your job to be good at it. Introverts with good social skills simply do the necessary amount of socialization to fulfill their needs the go back into their head once their are done. But while people mature, get new hobbies, get jobs, become parents, etc... Barring extreme situation, their core personality tends to stay the same, they just transfer. For example, an online game addict may end up getting out a lot more and vice versa, but online or outside, if they are extraverts, they will tend to have a lot of social interactions. It is usually apparent when people lose self control.
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    I disagree, or at least would point to it being anecdotal. All the online game addicts I know that are still introverted, are less social then they've ever been regardless of whether they still play games. If anything they've become more so, either in games or with some other thing. These people don't have any problem with how much they spend gaming. However my online gaming addict friends, including myself, do have a problem with it, and deliberately choose not to on the basis that it encourages social isolation and destructive tendencies.
    • GuB-42 5y ago
      There are different kind of online game players. There is an old write-up[1] about MUDs, the ancestors of modern MMORPGs. Players are categorized into 4 archetypes: hearts, clubs, diamonds, and spades, also called socializers, killers, achievers and explorers respectively. Socializers and killers are the extroverts. They play the game for the multiplayer aspect, socializers see the game as a communication platform while killers see it as a way to get attention. Achievers and explorers are the introverts, and for them, the multiplayer aspect is not really important. I have a few friends in the first category. They are very far from being socially isolated, even if they spend thousands of hours gaming. [1] https://mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm https://mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm
• QuesnayJr 5y ago
  I think one of the reasons psychologists reject Myers-Briggs is because it's not unusual for your results to change from test to test. The test that they prefer (the Big 5), does have introversion versus extroversion as one of its axes, though.
  • pseudalopex 5y ago
    All Big 5 traits except neuroticism correlate with Myers Briggs traits. The claimed unreliability comes from studies treating the traits as dichotomies. Instead of continuous scales like basically every MBTI test. The same methodology would make Big 5 look unreliable too.
• hilbert42 5y ago
  "<..> every human being has a need for socializing, but it takes effort and is exhausting. The amount of effort it takes and the degree to which it is exhausting differs from person to person, but it is not fixed. Socializing is like a muscle or a skill that can atrophy with neglect or develop with training." That's ever so true and socializing does take considerable effort and it's exhausting. I should have made that point in my earlier post. If you read it then you'd know that I wasn't the slightest bit concerned about the isolation the pandemic has brought into my life. These points you make also account for the answers I gave to the article's poll—in that at times I'm very sociable and at others not so much. As socializing takes effort and that it's tiring, I've cherry-picked the easy bits and largely ignored stuff that requires serious work and effort. I know that if I want or need to socialize then I can pretty much do so in any environment or situation as I've done so successfully in the past and on quite many occasions. The issue for me (and I reckon also for many others of a technical/scientific bent) is that I rarely see need for me to commit the effort to do so—given that there are so many other activates that I'd prefer to be doing. Cognitively, I know, and I think I've always known, that I should spend more time socializing and networking than I do, as they can and do take one to high places along with a concomitant increase in one's status and income. Simply, I'd be better off in many ways if I just took the necessary time and effort, however the motivation is just not there for me to do so, as I'd have to stop doing other things that I deem more important and or more valuable. There's nothing new in this understanding and the notion has likely been around forever. Recently, this old 2003 article by Paul Graham about Why Nerds are Unpopular made its reappearance on the web here on HN but also there have been other similar accounts around for decades. Of course, what's relevant to this story and these comments are the reasons behind the motivation for why some people are introverted and or why they act this way—as critically it determines whether a person considers said trait to be either distressing and unwanted or desirable and necessary—or perhaps even essential: http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html