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"Europe is an exception, where cement companies have to buy allowances to cover their CO2 emissions and can save money if they produce less. But in many other c

"Europe is an exception, where cement companies have to buy allowances to cover their CO2 emissions and can save money if they produce less. But in many other countries, such as the US, policies are not in place yet to encourage cement makers to pay for greener alternatives." That seems like a no-brainer, to build the externalities into the cost of goods.

gogopuppygogo 5y ago
Carbon taxes are extremely unpopular in the USA where many doubt the validity of climate change.
- dmm 5y ago
  They also seem unpopular in France, see the yellow vest riots in 2018. Consumption taxes in general disproportionately affect the poor.
  - paulsutter 5y ago
    Carbon taxes should start out very small, and phase in gradually over the equipment replacement period (at least 20-30 years?) Carbon taxes need to drive a shift in planning - on the planning time horizon - for everything that emits carbon
  - DennisP 5y ago
    So don't pay your carbon tax into the general fund. Pay the revenue out as a dividend, equal amount per capita. If you emit less CO2 than average you come out ahead. Poor people tend to emit quite a bit less than rich people; they buy less, ride the bus more, live in apartments or smaller houses, etc.
    - bequanna 5y ago
      If you want to go down this road you should be looking at % of income spent on carbon taxes. Maybe some “carbon allowance” would then be afforded so the lower income people that qualify could claim a deduction on their personal income tax return.
      - DennisP 5y ago
        Lower income people would already be turning a profit. Anyone with lower-than-average emissions would get more in their monthly dividend check than they pay in total carbon fees.
  - stainforth 5y ago
    Carbon taxes do not have to equal consumption taxes.
- wffurr 5y ago
  73% in favor is hardly "extremely unpopular". https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2020/06/23/two-thirds-of-americans-think-government-should-do-more-on-climate/ https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2020/06/23/two-thirds-of... The real issue is that the remaining 27% have a death grip on the levers of power by exploiting undemocratic aspects of the US electoral system.
  - astronautjones 5y ago
    "many doubt" is the same as "some people are saying", you can usually add "in completely bad faith" after those phrases
  - LatteLazy 5y ago
    73% "claim" to support taxing corporations. How many will actually vote for it knowing it means higher prices? This is the fundamental issue with climate change. Everyone agrees someone else should do something...
baybal2 5y ago
> That seems like a no-brainer, to build the externalities into the cost of goods. The real estate business is so profitable in the West that I doubt that even adding an extra zero to the price of concrete will make them to even scratch in the end.
- DennisP 5y ago
  Yes but with a sufficient carbon price, green cement will be cheaper than traditional, hence more profitable to use.
- WastingMyTime89 5y ago
  That's not the point. It gives cement companies an incentive to invest in greener tech because what would previously have been a pure cost now allow them to pay less taxes which means they can sell cheaper. That makes R&D into lowering emissions a competitive advantage.
LatteLazy 5y ago
It only works if everyone does it, and if they do it for the majority of emissions sources. As long as all the non-europe bits of the world don't do it, it's pointless. It just makes their flood defenses more expensive to build.
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  Why would this not work? Its by definition a business that requires local delivery, so every potential competitor is equally affected and there is no laughing third party that benefits.
  - LatteLazy 5y ago
    It won't work as in it won't stop climate change. If one area stops emissions (especially an already low emissions area like European concrete) it doesn't make much difference overall.

gogopuppygogo 5y ago

Carbon taxes are extremely unpopular in the USA where many doubt the validity of climate change.

dmm 5y ago
They also seem unpopular in France, see the yellow vest riots in 2018. Consumption taxes in general disproportionately affect the poor.
- paulsutter 5y ago
  Carbon taxes should start out very small, and phase in gradually over the equipment replacement period (at least 20-30 years?) Carbon taxes need to drive a shift in planning - on the planning time horizon - for everything that emits carbon
- DennisP 5y ago
  So don't pay your carbon tax into the general fund. Pay the revenue out as a dividend, equal amount per capita. If you emit less CO2 than average you come out ahead. Poor people tend to emit quite a bit less than rich people; they buy less, ride the bus more, live in apartments or smaller houses, etc.
  - bequanna 5y ago
    If you want to go down this road you should be looking at % of income spent on carbon taxes. Maybe some “carbon allowance” would then be afforded so the lower income people that qualify could claim a deduction on their personal income tax return.
    - DennisP 5y ago
      Lower income people would already be turning a profit. Anyone with lower-than-average emissions would get more in their monthly dividend check than they pay in total carbon fees.
- stainforth 5y ago
  Carbon taxes do not have to equal consumption taxes.
wffurr 5y ago
73% in favor is hardly "extremely unpopular". https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2020/06/23/two-thirds-of-americans-think-government-should-do-more-on-climate/ https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2020/06/23/two-thirds-of... The real issue is that the remaining 27% have a death grip on the levers of power by exploiting undemocratic aspects of the US electoral system.
- astronautjones 5y ago
  "many doubt" is the same as "some people are saying", you can usually add "in completely bad faith" after those phrases
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  73% "claim" to support taxing corporations. How many will actually vote for it knowing it means higher prices? This is the fundamental issue with climate change. Everyone agrees someone else should do something...

baybal2 5y ago

> That seems like a no-brainer, to build the externalities into the cost of goods. The real estate business is so profitable in the West that I doubt that even adding an extra zero to the price of concrete will make them to even scratch in the end.

DennisP 5y ago
Yes but with a sufficient carbon price, green cement will be cheaper than traditional, hence more profitable to use.
WastingMyTime89 5y ago
That's not the point. It gives cement companies an incentive to invest in greener tech because what would previously have been a pure cost now allow them to pay less taxes which means they can sell cheaper. That makes R&D into lowering emissions a competitive advantage.

LatteLazy 5y ago

It only works if everyone does it, and if they do it for the majority of emissions sources. As long as all the non-europe bits of the world don't do it, it's pointless. It just makes their flood defenses more expensive to build.

estaseuropano 5y ago
Why would this not work? Its by definition a business that requires local delivery, so every potential competitor is equally affected and there is no laughing third party that benefits.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  It won't work as in it won't stop climate change. If one area stops emissions (especially an already low emissions area like European concrete) it doesn't make much difference overall.