6 ms·

As someone personally close to the matter, I've come to think the action of the French school system has been overblown for ideological reasons, and that's the

by Bayart 5y ago

As someone personally close to the matter, I've come to think the action of the French school system has been overblown for ideological reasons, and that's the organic mechanics of acculturation that were very much in play in France have been completely forgotten, in particular as it pertains to urban migration, economic mobility and the growth of tertiary sector. Even if the French State did nothing, Occitan wouldn't be much better now if you look at the data from neighboring countries. It's my personal opinion, but the reason the educational program of the French Republic was successful is because it gave an outlet to a need people had. They wanted to move up, they wanted to speak French. Don't deny them agency.

pessimizer 5y ago
> They wanted to move up, they wanted to speak French. Don't deny them agency. This is a manipulation. What you are saying is that in order to move up in French society, they are required to speak French, and therefore they learned French in order not to be suppressed. But you're disguising it in weird wokeness language. You could use the same phrasing about skin-bleaching to make it sound like people who were against it were the actual oppressors, denying brown people their agency, speaking for brown people, saying that brown people are making bad decisions for themselves, and actively trying to keep brown people from enjoying the success that skin-bleaching would bring them. It's pretty reprehensible framing, but common. It's even used against brown people themselves, like in this case it's being used against Occitan speakers. I want to note that this framing is reprehensible, regardless of the facts on the ground, or the particular subject. You could just as well be arguing for women to get breast implants, or for orthodox Jews to make themselves available on Saturdays.
blacktriangle 5y ago
"Don't deny them agency" Dear god this is such a great statement. So many people working in international development fetishize life out in the village. Its like they want people to live in some kind of frozen time bubble as museum Fremen.
enriquto 5y ago
> They wanted to move up, they wanted to speak French. As a native speaker of one of the languages that France is successfully removing, I find your words deeply offensive. The suppression of languages of France has not been a peaceful or voluntary process, but a very violent one. Shit; school kids were ridiculed and reprimanded by speaking other non-french languages at the recreation yards! How evil is that? We have agency. Problem is that we are overwhelmed by a much powerful opponent that is actively trying to eliminate us. Now I'm living in Paris, and I'm sad and dismayed at the incomprehension of most native french speakers to the plight of the people of their own country.
- Bayart 5y ago
  I have directly observed and interacted with quite a few people who went through that process. Those who stayed in the village, or kept a social network there despite moving to the city, more or less all speak it still despite having learned French in school and being told the patois was best forgotten. Those who despise it the most and don't speak it anymore are those who moved out, climbed the social ladder and became mid or upper class in a city. Schooling certainly favoured that outcome, but it was ultimately determined by economics. If France had followed a less radical path, Occitan, Breton and others would be declining instead of dying, but they'd still end dead soon enough. On a side note, I find the whole victim mentality attached to that subject deplorable, in particular coming from young people who've never been through any sort of actual oppression. People have all the tools nowadays to perpetuate their language, but there's a lot more whining than actually putting the work into teaching it to their kids and actively speaking it.
  - enriquto 5y ago
    Of all places, HN was probably the last one where I would have expected to read such a disgusting defence of linguistic genocide. I'm at a loss. Honestly cannot reply to such bullshit without strong words. I hope some day you will understand that what you are saying is not alright, but I won't be able to help you in that. Have a good day.
  - mannerheim 5y ago
mannerheim 5y ago
There are numerous counterexamples of minority languages that have prospered despite the presence of a majority language that granted economic opportunity. Why didn't the Finns and Estonians just abandon their languages for Russian, the Hungarians theirs for German, or the Yugoslavians Serbian? If the Occitans had had their own country, e.g., if France had been carved up like Russia or Austria-Hungary had been, I see no reason why their language wouldn't still be commonly spoken.
azernik 5y ago
> if you look at the data from neighboring countries. Which neighboring countries, exactly? Minority languages in Spain were suppressed for decades under the Franco government, and intermittently under assorted Spanish monarchies and republics before that. Germany had a diglossia between Hochdeutsch and assorted local tongues, and some of those local tongues still exist because the state saw them as legitimate regional dialects of the standard language. Italy never put nearly as much of a premium on suppressing the regional languages whose literature had contributed to Standard Italian, and those dialects have survived much better than e.g. Sardinian or Franco-Provencal.

by Bayart 5y ago

pessimizer 5y ago

> They wanted to move up, they wanted to speak French. Don't deny them agency. This is a manipulation. What you are saying is that in order to move up in French society, they are required to speak French, and therefore they learned French in order not to be suppressed. But you're disguising it in weird wokeness language. You could use the same phrasing about skin-bleaching to make it sound like people who were against it were the actual oppressors, denying brown people their agency, speaking for brown people, saying that brown people are making bad decisions for themselves, and actively trying to keep brown people from enjoying the success that skin-bleaching would bring them. It's pretty reprehensible framing, but common. It's even used against brown people themselves, like in this case it's being used against Occitan speakers. I want to note that this framing is reprehensible, regardless of the facts on the ground, or the particular subject. You could just as well be arguing for women to get breast implants, or for orthodox Jews to make themselves available on Saturdays.

blacktriangle 5y ago

"Don't deny them agency" Dear god this is such a great statement. So many people working in international development fetishize life out in the village. Its like they want people to live in some kind of frozen time bubble as museum Fremen.

enriquto 5y ago

> They wanted to move up, they wanted to speak French. As a native speaker of one of the languages that France is successfully removing, I find your words deeply offensive. The suppression of languages of France has not been a peaceful or voluntary process, but a very violent one. Shit; school kids were ridiculed and reprimanded by speaking other non-french languages at the recreation yards! How evil is that? We have agency. Problem is that we are overwhelmed by a much powerful opponent that is actively trying to eliminate us. Now I'm living in Paris, and I'm sad and dismayed at the incomprehension of most native french speakers to the plight of the people of their own country.

Bayart 5y ago
I have directly observed and interacted with quite a few people who went through that process. Those who stayed in the village, or kept a social network there despite moving to the city, more or less all speak it still despite having learned French in school and being told the patois was best forgotten. Those who despise it the most and don't speak it anymore are those who moved out, climbed the social ladder and became mid or upper class in a city. Schooling certainly favoured that outcome, but it was ultimately determined by economics. If France had followed a less radical path, Occitan, Breton and others would be declining instead of dying, but they'd still end dead soon enough. On a side note, I find the whole victim mentality attached to that subject deplorable, in particular coming from young people who've never been through any sort of actual oppression. People have all the tools nowadays to perpetuate their language, but there's a lot more whining than actually putting the work into teaching it to their kids and actively speaking it.
- enriquto 5y ago
  Of all places, HN was probably the last one where I would have expected to read such a disgusting defence of linguistic genocide. I'm at a loss. Honestly cannot reply to such bullshit without strong words. I hope some day you will understand that what you are saying is not alright, but I won't be able to help you in that. Have a good day.
- mannerheim 5y ago

mannerheim 5y ago

There are numerous counterexamples of minority languages that have prospered despite the presence of a majority language that granted economic opportunity. Why didn't the Finns and Estonians just abandon their languages for Russian, the Hungarians theirs for German, or the Yugoslavians Serbian? If the Occitans had had their own country, e.g., if France had been carved up like Russia or Austria-Hungary had been, I see no reason why their language wouldn't still be commonly spoken.

azernik 5y ago

> if you look at the data from neighboring countries. Which neighboring countries, exactly? Minority languages in Spain were suppressed for decades under the Franco government, and intermittently under assorted Spanish monarchies and republics before that. Germany had a diglossia between Hochdeutsch and assorted local tongues, and some of those local tongues still exist because the state saw them as legitimate regional dialects of the standard language. Italy never put nearly as much of a premium on suppressing the regional languages whose literature had contributed to Standard Italian, and those dialects have survived much better than e.g. Sardinian or Franco-Provencal.