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I’m curious to know: which language is that a literal translation from? (Given the V-final word order, postpositions and use of ‘exist’, I’d guess either Korean

by bradrn 5y ago

I’m curious to know: which language is that a literal translation from? (Given the V-final word order, postpositions and use of ‘exist’, I’d guess either Korean or Japanese.)

jobigoud 5y ago
I don't know about the grandparent comment but many languages that have cases markers have a much more fluid word order, since the function of each word is already tagged by the case ending. The word order is then used to carry emphasis. Wikipedia has examples where the same sentence is written in half a dozen different word orders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_order#Hungarian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_order#Hungarian
yongjik 5y ago
Loosely based on Korean, but I "fixed" some words so that they match an equivalent English usage, because otherwise it's cheating. :)
- bradrn 5y ago
  Ah, thanks for clarifying! A further question: which words did you ‘fix’?
  - yongjik 5y ago
    What I wrote can be "translated" word-by-word to an acceptable Korean passage, but if I wrote it natively, the end result would be something like: 이런("like this") 문장을(sentence) 쓰신(wrote) 걸로(thing + with/from) 볼(see) 때(time/when), 영어와(English + with) 정말로(truly) 다른(different) 언어를(language) 공부해(study) 보신("see" or try) 적이(time) 없는(not exist) 것(thing) 같네요(similar), 맞습니까(correct + question marker)? Of course it's more or less gibberish, unless you already know, e.g., verb "see" also means "try" and "similar" means "that's my guess".
    - bradrn 5y ago
      OK, this really did seem like complete gibberish at first, to a far greater extent than I was expecting. But after staring at it for a while (and reading through a Korean reference grammar I had lying around), I think I can mostly see how this corresponds to the English translation: • 이런 문장을 쓰신 ‘like.this sentence wrote’ = ‘[you] wrote a sentence like that’, remembering that Korean is generally head-final. IIRC most East Asian languages allow elision of verbal arguments; I’m assuming this clause omits ‘you’. • 이런 문장을 쓰신 걸로 볼 때 ‘like.this sentence wrote thing-WITH see when’ = ‘since [I] saw [you] wrote a sentence like that…’. I’m assuming here that 이런 문장을 쓰신 is acting as some sort of subordinate clause, and that 때 ‘when’ is not purely temporal but also has some sort of resultative meaning, as with English ‘since’. But I’m not at all sure what role 걸로 ‘thing-WITH’ is playing in this clause. • 영어와 정말로 다른 언어를 ‘English-WITH truly different language’ = ‘a language truly different from English’. This puzzled me for a while until I remembered that relative clauses in Korean go before the noun. English requires a different adposition here than Korean does, but that’s very normal. • 영어와 정말로 다른 언어를 공부해 보신 ‘English-WITH truly different language study try’ = ‘try to study a language truly different from English’. • 영어와 정말로 다른 언어를 공부해 보신 적이 없는 ‘English-WITH truly different language study try time not.exist’ = ‘the time doesn’t exist when [you] tried to study a language truly different from English’. • 것 같네요, 맞습니까 ‘thing similar, correct-Q’ = ‘[this] thing is my guess, correct?’ Thus, a literal translation would be: ‘Since [I] saw [you] wrote a sentence like that, the time doesn’t exist when [you] tried to study a language truly different from English, [this] thing is my guess, correct?’ Is my analysis at all correct? If so, the only thing I’m still confused about is the purpose of 걸로 in the first clause, and I’d be interested to know if there’s an explanation for that. (Incidentally, I find it really amazing how many ways different languages have to say the same thing, and how a perfectly grammatical sentence in one language can become complete gibberish in another.)
      - yongjik 5y ago
        lol never thought I'd tutor Korean in HN, but why not... :) > But I’m not at all sure what role 걸로 ‘thing-WITH’ is playing in this clause. It's a bit cheating, because 것 "thing" is kinda special and combines with the preceding verbal clause to create a noun clause. A better translation (if I were to teach Korean) would be "that". So, "이런 문장을 쓰신 것" is "that [you] wrote a sentence like this". -으로 보다 (literally, "see with X") is an idiom meaning "considering X" - so "... 걸로(=것+으로) 볼 때" means literally "when [I] see that ...", or more naturally, "considering ..." Also, the auxiliary verb 보다 (try - or "see" when used as a main verb) is a bit harder to explain but less forceful than English "try", which sometimes implies a lot of effort. Korean 보다 is similar to usages like "Please try this cookie!" or "Sure, I'll try walking next time." In our current sentence it's more like "[you] didn't have any experience studying ..." Final "것 같네요" uses the same "thing/that" which takes the preceding clause, and "-것 같다" is an idiom meaning "I guess ...", i.e., "I guess that you haven't studied ..." So, I guess you got most of the grammar right from very few clues. :)

by bradrn 5y ago

I’m curious to know: which language is that a literal translation from? (Given the V-final word order, postpositions and use of ‘exist’, I’d guess either Korean or Japanese.)

jobigoud 5y ago

I don't know about the grandparent comment but many languages that have cases markers have a much more fluid word order, since the function of each word is already tagged by the case ending. The word order is then used to carry emphasis. Wikipedia has examples where the same sentence is written in half a dozen different word orders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_order#Hungarian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_order#Hungarian

yongjik 5y ago

Loosely based on Korean, but I "fixed" some words so that they match an equivalent English usage, because otherwise it's cheating. :)

bradrn 5y ago
Ah, thanks for clarifying! A further question: which words did you ‘fix’?
- yongjik 5y ago
  What I wrote can be "translated" word-by-word to an acceptable Korean passage, but if I wrote it natively, the end result would be something like: 이런("like this") 문장을(sentence) 쓰신(wrote) 걸로(thing + with/from) 볼(see) 때(time/when), 영어와(English + with) 정말로(truly) 다른(different) 언어를(language) 공부해(study) 보신("see" or try) 적이(time) 없는(not exist) 것(thing) 같네요(similar), 맞습니까(correct + question marker)? Of course it's more or less gibberish, unless you already know, e.g., verb "see" also means "try" and "similar" means "that's my guess".
  - bradrn 5y ago
    OK, this really did seem like complete gibberish at first, to a far greater extent than I was expecting. But after staring at it for a while (and reading through a Korean reference grammar I had lying around), I think I can mostly see how this corresponds to the English translation: • 이런 문장을 쓰신 ‘like.this sentence wrote’ = ‘[you] wrote a sentence like that’, remembering that Korean is generally head-final. IIRC most East Asian languages allow elision of verbal arguments; I’m assuming this clause omits ‘you’. • 이런 문장을 쓰신 걸로 볼 때 ‘like.this sentence wrote thing-WITH see when’ = ‘since [I] saw [you] wrote a sentence like that…’. I’m assuming here that 이런 문장을 쓰신 is acting as some sort of subordinate clause, and that 때 ‘when’ is not purely temporal but also has some sort of resultative meaning, as with English ‘since’. But I’m not at all sure what role 걸로 ‘thing-WITH’ is playing in this clause. • 영어와 정말로 다른 언어를 ‘English-WITH truly different language’ = ‘a language truly different from English’. This puzzled me for a while until I remembered that relative clauses in Korean go before the noun. English requires a different adposition here than Korean does, but that’s very normal. • 영어와 정말로 다른 언어를 공부해 보신 ‘English-WITH truly different language study try’ = ‘try to study a language truly different from English’. • 영어와 정말로 다른 언어를 공부해 보신 적이 없는 ‘English-WITH truly different language study try time not.exist’ = ‘the time doesn’t exist when [you] tried to study a language truly different from English’. • 것 같네요, 맞습니까 ‘thing similar, correct-Q’ = ‘[this] thing is my guess, correct?’ Thus, a literal translation would be: ‘Since [I] saw [you] wrote a sentence like that, the time doesn’t exist when [you] tried to study a language truly different from English, [this] thing is my guess, correct?’ Is my analysis at all correct? If so, the only thing I’m still confused about is the purpose of 걸로 in the first clause, and I’d be interested to know if there’s an explanation for that. (Incidentally, I find it really amazing how many ways different languages have to say the same thing, and how a perfectly grammatical sentence in one language can become complete gibberish in another.)
    - yongjik 5y ago
      lol never thought I'd tutor Korean in HN, but why not... :) > But I’m not at all sure what role 걸로 ‘thing-WITH’ is playing in this clause. It's a bit cheating, because 것 "thing" is kinda special and combines with the preceding verbal clause to create a noun clause. A better translation (if I were to teach Korean) would be "that". So, "이런 문장을 쓰신 것" is "that [you] wrote a sentence like this". -으로 보다 (literally, "see with X") is an idiom meaning "considering X" - so "... 걸로(=것+으로) 볼 때" means literally "when [I] see that ...", or more naturally, "considering ..." Also, the auxiliary verb 보다 (try - or "see" when used as a main verb) is a bit harder to explain but less forceful than English "try", which sometimes implies a lot of effort. Korean 보다 is similar to usages like "Please try this cookie!" or "Sure, I'll try walking next time." In our current sentence it's more like "[you] didn't have any experience studying ..." Final "것 같네요" uses the same "thing/that" which takes the preceding clause, and "-것 같다" is an idiom meaning "I guess ...", i.e., "I guess that you haven't studied ..." So, I guess you got most of the grammar right from very few clues. :)