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> But that's not how assimilation happens these days right? What about cultural imperialism? A language shapes your identity because it literally gives the gra

> But that's not how assimilation happens these days right? What about cultural imperialism? A language shapes your identity because it literally gives the grammar to your thoughts. But other cultural goods like music, netflix, youtube, tv, you name it, do shape our cultural grammar just as much. This is a point I don't expect anyone already embedded in the dominant culture to find salient, because the culture we are in is as transparent as sea is to fish. > People are begging to come to wealthy countries If people had comparable prospects at home, so few would actually leave. If you look at the non-asylum-seeking immigration reasons (i.e. the "beggars" in your words), it is primarily about economic hardship, with persecution, violence, war, human rights added on top. Guess what, in an interconnected international arena, wealthy countries have more culpability about those conditions than we care to admit.

cat_plus_plus 5y ago
> Guess what, in an interconnected international arena, wealthy countries have more culpability about those conditions than we care to admit. That has been talked about ad nauseam for the past 10 years. Maybe it's time to remember that non-wealthy countries have more culpability for their own conditions than anyone dares to mention?
- acituan 5y ago
  > That has been talked about ad nauseam for the past 10 years. Imperialism goes way more back than 10 years. It probably has been nauseating for some for at least a century. > Maybe it's time to remember that non-wealthy countries have more culpability for their own conditions than anyone dares to mention? Sounds like you've made the exact calculus to rank order culpability. I'm very interested to hear how we all can objectively arrive at this conclusion. Alternatively, you could tell us a state that haven't been at the receiving end of a war, coup, resource exploitation, economic warfare etc. and still managed to screw up their quest for self-determination.
  - yossarian1408 5y ago
    Zimbabwe, Argentina, off the top of my head
    - acituan 5y ago
      I'm not an expert in histories of those countries, but could you be forgetting a massively bloody military coup in 70s in the name of anticommunism in Argentina, or a history of complete international isolation and 15 years of civil war between Rhodesia and Zimbabwe thanks to British colonialism?
      - yossarian1408 5y ago
        A decade of destabilisation in both countries could have been the straw that broke the camel's back, sure. Argentina was already out of the rich-countries-club by the time the 70's had come around, and the bloody military coup you reference is likely the inevitable political instability that comes surely after sustained economic instability. And as for Zimbabwe, the "civil-war" was hardly a destabilising event for the country, and the international isolation was easily evaded, this is well documented. I think Zimbabwe, once the bread basket of Africa as Rhodesia, is a great example of how self-determination might undermine an improperly equipped nation.
throwaway210222 5y ago
> A language shapes your identity because it literally gives the grammar to your thoughts. So what happens when you learn a second, or third, or fourth language fluently? [Like, say me?] Do you suddenly have multiple-personalities? Complete bollocks.
- Aerroon 5y ago
  Knowing four languages isn't the same as thinking in them. It took me quite a while after becoming fluent in English to having errant thoughts in English. Both languages can influence my thinking - sometimes I'll think of half of a concept in English and finish off the thought in my native language. This is most common when I'm dealing with math or numbers.
  - throwaway210222 5y ago
    > A language shapes your identity because it literally gives the grammar to your thoughts. So does your 'identity' (whatever that is) change half way through the sentence. In you head? Are you literally a different person at either end of your sentence? SMH.
    - Aerroon 5y ago
      What? No. The change happens when you learn the language and start thinking in those concepts. It's like learning mathematics or programming: once you learn them, you notice the patterns elsewhere in life too. I don't think the difference in natural languages is as big as with learning programming or mathematics, but I imagine that there's some difference.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- truth_ 5y ago
  No, not complete bollocks. Learning new languages does add different layers to your personality. I am native-level fluent in three languages, and have some level of fluency in three more. Learning a new language opens a complete new door to a new culture, and way of thoughts through books, movies, songs, and so much more. Even if you don't spend time to learn a culture well, i.e. don't listen to music or read literature, learning a new grammar, and very importantly, new words, do reshape you, and gives you new perspectives and ways of thoughts.

cat_plus_plus 5y ago

> Guess what, in an interconnected international arena, wealthy countries have more culpability about those conditions than we care to admit. That has been talked about ad nauseam for the past 10 years. Maybe it's time to remember that non-wealthy countries have more culpability for their own conditions than anyone dares to mention?

acituan 5y ago
> That has been talked about ad nauseam for the past 10 years. Imperialism goes way more back than 10 years. It probably has been nauseating for some for at least a century. > Maybe it's time to remember that non-wealthy countries have more culpability for their own conditions than anyone dares to mention? Sounds like you've made the exact calculus to rank order culpability. I'm very interested to hear how we all can objectively arrive at this conclusion. Alternatively, you could tell us a state that haven't been at the receiving end of a war, coup, resource exploitation, economic warfare etc. and still managed to screw up their quest for self-determination.
- yossarian1408 5y ago
  Zimbabwe, Argentina, off the top of my head
  - acituan 5y ago
    I'm not an expert in histories of those countries, but could you be forgetting a massively bloody military coup in 70s in the name of anticommunism in Argentina, or a history of complete international isolation and 15 years of civil war between Rhodesia and Zimbabwe thanks to British colonialism?
    - yossarian1408 5y ago
      A decade of destabilisation in both countries could have been the straw that broke the camel's back, sure. Argentina was already out of the rich-countries-club by the time the 70's had come around, and the bloody military coup you reference is likely the inevitable political instability that comes surely after sustained economic instability. And as for Zimbabwe, the "civil-war" was hardly a destabilising event for the country, and the international isolation was easily evaded, this is well documented. I think Zimbabwe, once the bread basket of Africa as Rhodesia, is a great example of how self-determination might undermine an improperly equipped nation.

throwaway210222 5y ago

> A language shapes your identity because it literally gives the grammar to your thoughts. So what happens when you learn a second, or third, or fourth language fluently? [Like, say me?] Do you suddenly have multiple-personalities? Complete bollocks.

Aerroon 5y ago
Knowing four languages isn't the same as thinking in them. It took me quite a while after becoming fluent in English to having errant thoughts in English. Both languages can influence my thinking - sometimes I'll think of half of a concept in English and finish off the thought in my native language. This is most common when I'm dealing with math or numbers.
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  > A language shapes your identity because it literally gives the grammar to your thoughts. So does your 'identity' (whatever that is) change half way through the sentence. In you head? Are you literally a different person at either end of your sentence? SMH.
  - Aerroon 5y ago
    What? No. The change happens when you learn the language and start thinking in those concepts. It's like learning mathematics or programming: once you learn them, you notice the patterns elsewhere in life too. I don't think the difference in natural languages is as big as with learning programming or mathematics, but I imagine that there's some difference.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
truth_ 5y ago
No, not complete bollocks. Learning new languages does add different layers to your personality. I am native-level fluent in three languages, and have some level of fluency in three more. Learning a new language opens a complete new door to a new culture, and way of thoughts through books, movies, songs, and so much more. Even if you don't spend time to learn a culture well, i.e. don't listen to music or read literature, learning a new grammar, and very importantly, new words, do reshape you, and gives you new perspectives and ways of thoughts.