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> Any deep work suffers from interruptions, and programming isn't the only type of work that has significant mental context. This idea that programmers are uniq

> Any deep work suffers from interruptions, and programming isn't the only type of work that has significant mental context. This idea that programmers are uniquely vulnerable and no one else can understand doesn't help the situation. We seem to be the only profession that cares then. It is only developers who get why you Slack people you are sitting next to.

ViViDboarder 5y ago
I think we’re one of the few that requires nearly entirely deep work yet also often work in an environment that isn’t conducive to it. Many other professionals that do this kind of work have private offices. Painters, architects, lawyers, etc. Meanwhile we cram ourselves together, surround ourselves with physical and digital distractions, and expect near immediately responsiveness from peers. I’m glad to have my team working from home now.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I forget where I read it, but there was a blog post that mentioned how open offices basically turn developers into furniture as part of the job is appearing busy like bees. This actually happened to me once. Some big investor was coming one day, so we were all to be in our seats for a certain time to show that we were productive.
  - dpritchett 5y ago
    Happened to us at a small agency. Allowed WFH days were standardized to specific days of the week so we could show a full house on days when we had client visits.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  > in an environment that isn’t conducive to it You may have hit the crux of the problem. Programmers aren't uniquely dependent on deep work, but tech companies seem to be uniquely determined to do everything they can do to make the office as hostile as possible to that. Add to that the expectation of instant availability via whatever messaging and it's clear even among tech company deep workers, programmers have worse conditions.
uxp100 5y ago
I guess I consider it part of my Job to be there and answer questions, assist other developers, etc. (Also please do not slack me when you're sitting right next to me, it's like, more disruptive and annoying than just talking to me. But mostly just use Email, please.)
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I am fine with that, just not immediately that second. And do you enable Slack notifications? I don't. I just look for the glow of the icon.
  - uxp100 5y ago
    I do, though it’s not just that, it’s also the read and typing notifications and stuff I don’t like. Disabling it would make it more tolerable though. However, there really are things I want someone to have the ability to notify immediately for. Narrow time slots on in demand hardware like prototypes or FPGAs, change of team location in a lunch room or a big lab, and drop what you’re doing and debug this when it makes sense. Maybe I just don’t focus as deep as others.
- BeetleB 5y ago
  > (Also please do not slack me when you're sitting right next to me, it's like, more disruptive and annoying than just talking to me. But mostly just use Email, please.) I was about to say the same. Slack disruptions are often worse than in person interruptions. Email isn't.
gopalv 5y ago
> We seem to be the only profession that cares then. Our profession seems to be one where it is not obvious to others that we're in a flow or in deep working mode, since there is no visible difference between work-isolation mode, browsing the internet for random programming or browsing for fun, from four feet away. My uncle is a neuro plastic surgeon, he is prone to disruptions in more ways than I am (if I talk to him while he's cooking about a decision he needs to make, he loses track of the recipe), but I assume he is never disrupted by someone asking something unrelated while he's working. My partner too is clearly in an uninterruptible state when practicing the piano or painting something, even writing skeleton work is done on a book instead of a computer. But I get why it is hard to notice a programmer in isolation over other professions of deep work - I don't put on a lab coat or scrubs , to communicate that clearly to others in a familiar "at work" situation. I'm trying with a "at work" desk light, but I'm still not consistent enough with it & this is very much forced.
- 8note 5y ago
  Instead of the at work light, keeping notes on paper is somewhat obvious, and tied to actually doing the work. Plus, you can do a pretty clear mental dump when somebody wants you to context switch, and they can see you doing it
GuB-42 5y ago
I think development is a profession where it is not obvious when you are interruptible. In fact one of the best manager I had outright ask me "are you interruptible?", because she doesn't know if I am deep into a complex problem or just cleaning up stuff or waiting for my code to compile. Manual labor also require focus, but when you are occupied tends to be obvious. If you are under a car, messing around with a tool in your hand, everyone knows it is not the best time to interrupt you. In safety-critical jobs, like in the case of pilots, there are mandatory protocols that explicitly forbit interruptions during critical moments. People usually know enough not to barge in when the manager is having an talk with his higher up or when the salesman is negotiating with a customer unless it really is urgent. But programmers just stare at the screen all day, and most of the work happens in their head, so how do you know if they can be interrupted or not. Bad managers assume "always", because themselves only stare at the screen during their "off" time, so they assume programmers are always "off".
- Crespyl 5y ago
  At a prior job we actually little LED RGB light tabs that would stick on our monitors, and set them to red or green to indicate exactly this. Uptake and responses were somewhat mixed, but it was nice to have an explicit signal, beyond just putting my headphones on, that I was not going to be welcoming of interruptions for the next few hours. At the time we were in a pretty cramped office in a co-working space, so I appreciated anything that could help cut down on distractions even a little.
  - grp000 5y ago
    I have problems building habits going out of deep work. It's like the problem is less getting dumped from my mind and more slowly filtering out, and since my mind is still occupied, I'll move on reflex and perpetually forget to flip the switch.
- kkylin 5y ago
  I'm a mathematician. I spend a lot of time staring into space and mumbling to myself. Sometimes, though, when I'm just zoned out, my wife would ask: "Are you working on something?"
wheelinsupial 5y ago
Not really. It’s probably more likely that developers are the ones who are able to create blogs and voice their opinions more easily on the internet. My step-dad works in logistics and likes to quote “a single interruption takes a person 15 minutes to get refocused”. He blocks specific hours for his field staff to stay away from the office staff, so they can process the critical daily work without interruptions. Google searching seems to say it’s closer to 23 minutes these days. Industrial engineers seem to have studied interruptions on work in the late 90’s and maybe even earlier. As a further anecdote, when I worked in manufacturing I would end up having to come in on the weekends to do cognitively demanding work. Designing tooling, creating and optimizing CNC programs, and checking parts using coordinate measuring machines while getting interrupted by the quoting department to “just give me a quick estimate what you think this part will cost for us to make for the customer”, or production saying “we need you to quickly trouble shoot the defective parts we are producing because otherwise we will be late and get a fine for missing the shipping date” results in costly errors that can’t be fixed by recompiling code. Pressure, interruptions, and bad management are not unique to software development. And yes, other professions do care about production high quality work.

ViViDboarder 5y ago

I think we’re one of the few that requires nearly entirely deep work yet also often work in an environment that isn’t conducive to it. Many other professionals that do this kind of work have private offices. Painters, architects, lawyers, etc. Meanwhile we cram ourselves together, surround ourselves with physical and digital distractions, and expect near immediately responsiveness from peers. I’m glad to have my team working from home now.

MattGaiser 5y ago
I forget where I read it, but there was a blog post that mentioned how open offices basically turn developers into furniture as part of the job is appearing busy like bees. This actually happened to me once. Some big investor was coming one day, so we were all to be in our seats for a certain time to show that we were productive.
- dpritchett 5y ago
  Happened to us at a small agency. Allowed WFH days were standardized to specific days of the week so we could show a full house on days when we had client visits.
cratermoon 5y ago
> in an environment that isn’t conducive to it You may have hit the crux of the problem. Programmers aren't uniquely dependent on deep work, but tech companies seem to be uniquely determined to do everything they can do to make the office as hostile as possible to that. Add to that the expectation of instant availability via whatever messaging and it's clear even among tech company deep workers, programmers have worse conditions.

uxp100 5y ago

I guess I consider it part of my Job to be there and answer questions, assist other developers, etc. (Also please do not slack me when you're sitting right next to me, it's like, more disruptive and annoying than just talking to me. But mostly just use Email, please.)

MattGaiser 5y ago
I am fine with that, just not immediately that second. And do you enable Slack notifications? I don't. I just look for the glow of the icon.
- uxp100 5y ago
  I do, though it’s not just that, it’s also the read and typing notifications and stuff I don’t like. Disabling it would make it more tolerable though. However, there really are things I want someone to have the ability to notify immediately for. Narrow time slots on in demand hardware like prototypes or FPGAs, change of team location in a lunch room or a big lab, and drop what you’re doing and debug this when it makes sense. Maybe I just don’t focus as deep as others.
BeetleB 5y ago
> (Also please do not slack me when you're sitting right next to me, it's like, more disruptive and annoying than just talking to me. But mostly just use Email, please.) I was about to say the same. Slack disruptions are often worse than in person interruptions. Email isn't.

gopalv 5y ago

> We seem to be the only profession that cares then. Our profession seems to be one where it is not obvious to others that we're in a flow or in deep working mode, since there is no visible difference between work-isolation mode, browsing the internet for random programming or browsing for fun, from four feet away. My uncle is a neuro plastic surgeon, he is prone to disruptions in more ways than I am (if I talk to him while he's cooking about a decision he needs to make, he loses track of the recipe), but I assume he is never disrupted by someone asking something unrelated while he's working. My partner too is clearly in an uninterruptible state when practicing the piano or painting something, even writing skeleton work is done on a book instead of a computer. But I get why it is hard to notice a programmer in isolation over other professions of deep work - I don't put on a lab coat or scrubs , to communicate that clearly to others in a familiar "at work" situation. I'm trying with a "at work" desk light, but I'm still not consistent enough with it & this is very much forced.

8note 5y ago
Instead of the at work light, keeping notes on paper is somewhat obvious, and tied to actually doing the work. Plus, you can do a pretty clear mental dump when somebody wants you to context switch, and they can see you doing it

GuB-42 5y ago

I think development is a profession where it is not obvious when you are interruptible. In fact one of the best manager I had outright ask me "are you interruptible?", because she doesn't know if I am deep into a complex problem or just cleaning up stuff or waiting for my code to compile. Manual labor also require focus, but when you are occupied tends to be obvious. If you are under a car, messing around with a tool in your hand, everyone knows it is not the best time to interrupt you. In safety-critical jobs, like in the case of pilots, there are mandatory protocols that explicitly forbit interruptions during critical moments. People usually know enough not to barge in when the manager is having an talk with his higher up or when the salesman is negotiating with a customer unless it really is urgent. But programmers just stare at the screen all day, and most of the work happens in their head, so how do you know if they can be interrupted or not. Bad managers assume "always", because themselves only stare at the screen during their "off" time, so they assume programmers are always "off".

Crespyl 5y ago
At a prior job we actually little LED RGB light tabs that would stick on our monitors, and set them to red or green to indicate exactly this. Uptake and responses were somewhat mixed, but it was nice to have an explicit signal, beyond just putting my headphones on, that I was not going to be welcoming of interruptions for the next few hours. At the time we were in a pretty cramped office in a co-working space, so I appreciated anything that could help cut down on distractions even a little.
- grp000 5y ago
  I have problems building habits going out of deep work. It's like the problem is less getting dumped from my mind and more slowly filtering out, and since my mind is still occupied, I'll move on reflex and perpetually forget to flip the switch.
kkylin 5y ago
I'm a mathematician. I spend a lot of time staring into space and mumbling to myself. Sometimes, though, when I'm just zoned out, my wife would ask: "Are you working on something?"

wheelinsupial 5y ago

Not really. It’s probably more likely that developers are the ones who are able to create blogs and voice their opinions more easily on the internet. My step-dad works in logistics and likes to quote “a single interruption takes a person 15 minutes to get refocused”. He blocks specific hours for his field staff to stay away from the office staff, so they can process the critical daily work without interruptions. Google searching seems to say it’s closer to 23 minutes these days. Industrial engineers seem to have studied interruptions on work in the late 90’s and maybe even earlier. As a further anecdote, when I worked in manufacturing I would end up having to come in on the weekends to do cognitively demanding work. Designing tooling, creating and optimizing CNC programs, and checking parts using coordinate measuring machines while getting interrupted by the quoting department to “just give me a quick estimate what you think this part will cost for us to make for the customer”, or production saying “we need you to quickly trouble shoot the defective parts we are producing because otherwise we will be late and get a fine for missing the shipping date” results in costly errors that can’t be fixed by recompiling code. Pressure, interruptions, and bad management are not unique to software development. And yes, other professions do care about production high quality work.