4 ms·

> it's evident that the domestic labor force is ill-equipped to fulfill this demand. ...at the current market price for manual farm work, which is low because

by defen 15y ago

> it's evident that the domestic labor force is ill-equipped to fulfill this demand. ...at the current market price for manual farm work, which is low because there are plenty of people from other countries willing to work extremely hard for low pay. But think about the long-term effects here - eventually the current pickers are going to get old and retire. New ones will be needed. So now we need to import more uneducated manual laborers into the country. At the current rates at which 2nd-, 3rd-, and 4th-generation Hispanic immigrants graduate college (http://www.hispanic7.com/us_latinos_enroll_in_college_more.htm http://www.hispanic7.com/us_latinos_enroll_in_college_more.h...), you're literally importing an underclass that is ethnically, culturally, and linguistically different from the majority. That never ends well. > The third option is that some company will set up shop in some other country to exploit this labor force that is unavailable in your country, then sell you cheap-ass cucumbers and further increase your trade deficit This can be handled with tariffs, like we do with sugar.

potatolicious 15y ago
> "So now we need to import more uneducated manual laborers into the country." Welcome to the history of the United States. This isn't just manual laborers, but applies to skilled/educated labor forces too. The intellectual side of America has always been driven by immigration, and this has never been more true than the post-WW2 era. Look at your local university's academics - how many them are first-generation or second-gen immigrants? NASA is practically built out of foreign scientists. And closer to home, what's the representation of immigrants in the tech industry compared to the population at large? The locals always underperform compared to people willing to scrabble and fight because they've had a tougher background. So unless you have a plan to make locals competitive (beyond simply "raise the wages!"), this seems an inevitable move. > "This can be handled with tariffs, like we do with sugar." Ah, so you hope to fight free market capitalism with tariffs... Okay, so let's go with your plan and raise manual labor wages such that people actually want to be farm hands. Then we go way out of our way to essentially ban foreign imports, or make them so expensive that everyone must use domestic substitutes. We become an enclosed economy so we don't have to face competitive pressures from outside. You're an economy in a bottle, and you better damn pray you have everything you could ever want within your own borders... because as soon as you leave more competitive countries will eat you for lunch. What part of that sounds like sound economic policy? > "you're literally importing an underclass that is ethnically, culturally, and linguistically different from the majority. That never ends well." Isn't this the crux of your argument? You seem to believe this is a bad thing - I fail to see how this can be the case. If this country eventually just starts speaking Spanish as a first-language, what's wrong with that? So what if burritos eventually replace hamburgers as the national staple... in fact this has already happened in some places to no ill effect. I used to live in Toronto, Canada, where a whopping 50% of the population is immigrant. Pandemonium has not ensued, and instead the country is a stronger, more interesting, and more diverse place for it. Xenophobia has no place in modern economic policy. Even looking beyond principles of equality, protectionist laws are just plain bad ideas because you're only staving off the inevitable and making things worse. If there is a coder out there right now who's better than me, wants 10% of my pay, and is willing to bust his ass to do so... come hell or high water there's not a force in the world sufficient to stop him from competing with me.
eru 15y ago
> ...at the current market price for manual farm work, which is low because there are plenty of people from other countries willing to work extremely hard for low pay. They are only coming, because they earn even less in their old country. Why do you want to keep those people poor?
anigbrowl 15y ago
...at the current market price for manual farm work, which is low because there are plenty of people from other countries willing to work extremely hard for low pay. Prices are low partly because they have no bargaining power due to their lack of legal status. It is the threat of deportation and the resultant economic insecurity that keeps such people in an 'underclass' and prevents them from participating more fully in society, even if they are paying taxes or otherwise invested. Tariffs have been repeatedly demonstrated to be a failure, as has economic autarky in general.

by defen 15y ago

potatolicious 15y ago

> "So now we need to import more uneducated manual laborers into the country." Welcome to the history of the United States. This isn't just manual laborers, but applies to skilled/educated labor forces too. The intellectual side of America has always been driven by immigration, and this has never been more true than the post-WW2 era. Look at your local university's academics - how many them are first-generation or second-gen immigrants? NASA is practically built out of foreign scientists. And closer to home, what's the representation of immigrants in the tech industry compared to the population at large? The locals always underperform compared to people willing to scrabble and fight because they've had a tougher background. So unless you have a plan to make locals competitive (beyond simply "raise the wages!"), this seems an inevitable move. > "This can be handled with tariffs, like we do with sugar." Ah, so you hope to fight free market capitalism with tariffs... Okay, so let's go with your plan and raise manual labor wages such that people actually want to be farm hands. Then we go way out of our way to essentially ban foreign imports, or make them so expensive that everyone must use domestic substitutes. We become an enclosed economy so we don't have to face competitive pressures from outside. You're an economy in a bottle, and you better damn pray you have everything you could ever want within your own borders... because as soon as you leave more competitive countries will eat you for lunch. What part of that sounds like sound economic policy? > "you're literally importing an underclass that is ethnically, culturally, and linguistically different from the majority. That never ends well." Isn't this the crux of your argument? You seem to believe this is a bad thing - I fail to see how this can be the case. If this country eventually just starts speaking Spanish as a first-language, what's wrong with that? So what if burritos eventually replace hamburgers as the national staple... in fact this has already happened in some places to no ill effect. I used to live in Toronto, Canada, where a whopping 50% of the population is immigrant. Pandemonium has not ensued, and instead the country is a stronger, more interesting, and more diverse place for it. Xenophobia has no place in modern economic policy. Even looking beyond principles of equality, protectionist laws are just plain bad ideas because you're only staving off the inevitable and making things worse. If there is a coder out there right now who's better than me, wants 10% of my pay, and is willing to bust his ass to do so... come hell or high water there's not a force in the world sufficient to stop him from competing with me.

eru 15y ago

> ...at the current market price for manual farm work, which is low because there are plenty of people from other countries willing to work extremely hard for low pay. They are only coming, because they earn even less in their old country. Why do you want to keep those people poor?

anigbrowl 15y ago

...at the current market price for manual farm work, which is low because there are plenty of people from other countries willing to work extremely hard for low pay. Prices are low partly because they have no bargaining power due to their lack of legal status. It is the threat of deportation and the resultant economic insecurity that keeps such people in an 'underclass' and prevents them from participating more fully in society, even if they are paying taxes or otherwise invested. Tariffs have been repeatedly demonstrated to be a failure, as has economic autarky in general.