4 ms·

It's a shame that computer science doesn't have any kind of board of ethics like engineering does, or any expectations other than privacy laws. How come enginee

It's a shame that computer science doesn't have any kind of board of ethics like engineering does, or any expectations other than privacy laws. How come engineers have to be PEs but we don't have any kind of equivalent for programmers?

quantumwoke 5y ago
Wouldn't this create a sort of 'chilling effect' where programmers have to conform to a vague expectation? cf. CoC usage in open source code
- salawat 5y ago
  Yes, but it solved a very poignant problem for society. It is illegal to knowingly build an unsafe structure. It is illegal to build something that does not comply with relevant regulations (let's ignore the issue of spotty enforcement for a moment that enabled things like the 737 MAX). Software engineering has no way to to constrain or enforce the upholding of the public interest in not being victims of crappy, malicious, or otherwise unsafe/insecure software. How it'd actually play out, is you'd have Software a PE would sign off on meets "code" (think building code), software that doesn't, and boundaries drawn around functional areas or applications that should only be implemented with software that meets "code". The closest thing we have is some DoD standard I think whose name escapes me at the moment.
ThrowawayR2 5y ago
There is the Association for Computing Machinery and it's code of ethics (https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics) but hardly anyone is a member of the ACM. Beyond that, most people, even on HN, wouldn't qualify to become a programmer PE and they know it. So every time it's brought up, there's a huge outcry about "gatekeeping", even though the quality of software and the frequency of security breaches and data thefts indicates that the gate does indeed need to be kept. At some point, much like medical malpractice eventually led to licensing for doctors, I predict that the severity of security breaches is going to get to a tipping point where it will happen.
- salawat 5y ago
  There is no PE for software engineering last I checked a few years ago. I was actually quite interested in becoming one for the specific reason I was getting pissed at not being able to reject clearly unethical work in a way that would stick or propagate out to a professional network. If anyone can point me in the direction of anything having changed in that regard, I'd be much obliged if you drop a reply.
- giantg2 5y ago
  The difference here is that doctors are making the decisions. Developers are generally pressured or overridden by the business they work for.
  - ThrowawayR2 5y ago
    Doctors are under pressure by insurers and hospital administrators constantly.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      That's usually for number of patients seen or policies, not for changing their diagnoses. If they are changing diagnoses or other medical decisions, then it is highly unethical. Developers are often told what technologies they can use, when it needs to be done by, and much more. The business logic in the system is generally dictated by the business. There's very little the developer has strategic control over. We're really just implementating someone else's ideas.
RecentlyThawed 5y ago
I believe some states used to have a professional license software engineering component for a few years but have since stopped.
duped 5y ago
Engineering barely has boards of ethics and PEs are only required in a tiny fraction of projects. It's as bad if not worse than CS.

quantumwoke 5y ago

Wouldn't this create a sort of 'chilling effect' where programmers have to conform to a vague expectation? cf. CoC usage in open source code

salawat 5y ago
Yes, but it solved a very poignant problem for society. It is illegal to knowingly build an unsafe structure. It is illegal to build something that does not comply with relevant regulations (let's ignore the issue of spotty enforcement for a moment that enabled things like the 737 MAX). Software engineering has no way to to constrain or enforce the upholding of the public interest in not being victims of crappy, malicious, or otherwise unsafe/insecure software. How it'd actually play out, is you'd have Software a PE would sign off on meets "code" (think building code), software that doesn't, and boundaries drawn around functional areas or applications that should only be implemented with software that meets "code". The closest thing we have is some DoD standard I think whose name escapes me at the moment.

ThrowawayR2 5y ago

There is the Association for Computing Machinery and it's code of ethics (https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics) but hardly anyone is a member of the ACM. Beyond that, most people, even on HN, wouldn't qualify to become a programmer PE and they know it. So every time it's brought up, there's a huge outcry about "gatekeeping", even though the quality of software and the frequency of security breaches and data thefts indicates that the gate does indeed need to be kept. At some point, much like medical malpractice eventually led to licensing for doctors, I predict that the severity of security breaches is going to get to a tipping point where it will happen.

salawat 5y ago
There is no PE for software engineering last I checked a few years ago. I was actually quite interested in becoming one for the specific reason I was getting pissed at not being able to reject clearly unethical work in a way that would stick or propagate out to a professional network. If anyone can point me in the direction of anything having changed in that regard, I'd be much obliged if you drop a reply.
giantg2 5y ago
The difference here is that doctors are making the decisions. Developers are generally pressured or overridden by the business they work for.
- ThrowawayR2 5y ago
  Doctors are under pressure by insurers and hospital administrators constantly.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    That's usually for number of patients seen or policies, not for changing their diagnoses. If they are changing diagnoses or other medical decisions, then it is highly unethical. Developers are often told what technologies they can use, when it needs to be done by, and much more. The business logic in the system is generally dictated by the business. There's very little the developer has strategic control over. We're really just implementating someone else's ideas.

RecentlyThawed 5y ago

I believe some states used to have a professional license software engineering component for a few years but have since stopped.

duped 5y ago

Engineering barely has boards of ethics and PEs are only required in a tiny fraction of projects. It's as bad if not worse than CS.