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I know a couple of people (EDIT: two people) that have started working for Tesla in Germany and the one that was there the longest quit in less than 6 months.

I know a couple of people (EDIT: two people) that have started working for Tesla in Germany and the one that was there the longest quit in less than 6 months. Basically, Tesla does not pay enough here for competent people to work for them. EDIT: For mechanical and civil engineers, they pay ~10-20% more than market average, but market average works 9-4 (35h/week), has a pretty relaxed work, colleagues are also relaxed, etc. These type of people are used to a very relaxed life, spending lots of time with their kids, leaving their work phone at work, not checking emails after work or on the weekends, etc. In Tesla you work your ass off, work shifts, there is apparently a high level of incompetency, high turnover, lots of stress to deliver impossible things, etc. A very skilled friend told me he wouldn't do it for less than 3x their actual salary. For 20% more the offer made absolutely no sense. I think he was there for ~2 months or so. He took a pay cut for their next job, and did so very happily. If the only people you can attract are juniors without anybody to help them grow, well this is what you get.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
Wow, that's intense! And because of mismanagement or work style or something else? My impression is that Tesla/SpaceX really drive people hard and I'm not sure how well that culture flies in Germany. Edit - saw your edit, thanks for clarifying!
- progx 5y ago
  If you got no stock options or anything else, why should you work in germany more than 35 hours for a company? When you work more for more money, the taxes explode.
  - volta83 5y ago
    Stock options are "salary" in Germany, and they get taxed at ~45%. --- In Germany, everything that a company gives an employee is salary. Company car? You have to pay 1% of the listing price of the car _per month_ in taxes (that's 1000$ per month in taxes for the employee if their company gives them a 100k$ car..). Stock? The day you receive the stock, price is measured, and 45% you pay in taxes. Stock options? The day you receive the option, the price of the stock were you to exercise it right away is measured, and that's taxed with 45% (which kind of forces you to exercise at least some of the options to pay the taxes), etc. Otherwise companies could pay you by paying your whole life (car, house, etc.) to avoid taxes. BTW, this is also why startup culture in Germany sucks. Startups can't really pay people in stock options, cause they are super highly taxed, and they are hard to value. Worst case you end up paying a lot of taxes for something that ends up being valued == 0 the moment you can't sell it (startup dies).
    - foepys 5y ago
      Correction, you have to declare (or whatever you call "anrechnen") 1% of the company car that you are allowed use in your free time, which often works out cheaper than a privately owned car. In the end you pay at max 45% of the 1% for it, although 45% only applies to every € over 250,000€/year. For every € between about 60,000€/year and 250,000€ you are taxed 42%.
      - volta83 5y ago
        That’s correct, but if you want to actually not pay the 1%, you need to justify how much time you use the car privately or for work, and the way you do that is per km: by tracking all trips that you make in kms and tracking how many of those are private or work (car book). You can also pay 0% for the company car, but then you need to use it only for work, keep it parked at your employers, can’t use it for anything private, etc. What most people understand by getting a company car is “a car that you can use for whatever whenever and however you want” (it’s your car). If you do that, and only use it privately, then 1% is what you pay.
    - notanormalnerd 5y ago
      That is just wrong. You have to tax the 1% of the list price, 0,5% for hybrid and electric and 0,1% for ebikes and bikes. Also you don't have to pay the 45%. That is the highest tax bracket in the progessive system. So you have to put the 1% (1000€ for a really expensive car you probably only get as a CEO) and assume that as payout. And then you tax that. For a good car you normally are in the range of 300-500€ a month for normal employees and then you can even pay the gas which is a bigger benefit for most people. Also you don't have to pay taxes on unrealised gains, that is just bullshit. You have to pay taxes only when you realise those gains, e.g. when you pull the option and sell or keep the shares. As long as it is just options you don't have to pay anything. But with your level of tax knowledge I would also be scared of the bad bad Finanzamt. OwO
      - llampx 5y ago
        Sorry, the parent comment is completely correct. Yes, exceptions exist, such as someone making 32k€ and given a hybrid/EV or e-bike as company car will not pay as much as an engineer making 80k€ and a diesel Passat. Otherwise, the comment is correct. Taxes are kind of insane in Germany. Stock options (or crypto) counted as regular income _are_ taxed at your marginal tax rate, which, for anyone making above 55k€ or so is either 42% or 45%. Can't be bothered to look it up.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    I hear this 35h/week thing in Germany a lot around here but when looking for tech jobs there all companies I saw expect 40h/week, so which is it? Or is 35 the standard for government workers and unionized companies like in construction?
    - volta83 5y ago
      35h/week is IG metall, i.e., "metal works" / mechanical engineering work, machine manufacturing, etc. Think Daimler, BMW, Thyssen, Porsche, VW, Bosch, ... > Or is 35 the standard for government workers Government workers typically have 40h/week, but govenrment supports 50% and 75% time (so 20h/week or 30h/week) with the corresponding reduction in salary. > tech jobs That's usually 40h/week unless you do a tech job at a "metal works" company like BMW, VW, Porsche, etc. in which case its 35h/week. Outside of these companies, you can negotiate your work time pretty much freely up to the legal limits for salaried employees. Legal limit on a particular day is 10h/day, and you need 1 day off per week, so your max weekly workload can be 60h/week. However, the legal limit _on average_ is like 45-50h/week, so if you work 60h one week, you have to work 20 the next one to avoid violating the average limit. These legal limits are actually very harshly enforced. It isn't uncommon for, e.g., chinese companies to get fined in germany for violating this, and after the first fine, they are required to report the exact work times of each employee. The fines grow significantly, so usually chinese companies end up closing the office and kicking everyone out after 40h/week to avoid getting close to a second fine.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        I used to work for a company that had a very hard time getting used to the culture. The "You will do X", followed by our "well actually..." reply, was quite common in the early years.
    - anotheryou 5y ago
      You are allowed to reduce hours by law (at least at above 20 employees (and after probation time))
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    This is a common myth, but you'll never get less money in your account by earning more. Never. (If other conditions remain the same, naturally)
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      > This is a common myth, but you'll never get less money in your account by earning more. Never. (If other conditions remain the same, naturally) That wasn't the original claim. If you're paying a high marginal tax rate, you may be making a nonnegative amount of money, but that doesn't mean it's a sufficient incentive to get you to do work when you'd sooner play video games. But on top of that, it isn't even true. It's not unheard of for marginal rates in practice to exceed 100% as a result of overlapping benefits phase outs. You pay a 25% tax rate, an education benefit phases out at a rate of 25%, a housing benefit phases out at a rate of 30%, a childcare benefit phases out at a rate of 25%, you earn an extra $1 and the government takes $1.05. This also doesn't account for the cost of earning the money. Your boss offers you an extra half shift, but then you pay the commuting cost (say $10) for 4 hours instead of 8. If your hourly rate is $10, maybe you still take it and make $30. If it's $10/hour but there is a 50% marginal rate, you spend two hours commuting and four hours working to come home with $10/day, and screw that. If the marginal rate was 80%, you're nominally "making" $8/day but in practice you're losing $2/day (and the six hours of time).
    - volta83 5y ago
      No, but you can earn more per year and earn much less per hour of work. That’s the problem with Tesla in Germany: annual salary is 10-20% higher, hourly salary is 30% lower. My friends quitting lost in yearly salary, but won huge in hourly rate.
- camjohnson26 5y ago
  This type of behavior and far worse has been well documented at Fremont. There’s multiple lawsuits currently open, including one black employee who was called the n word multiple times by a superior and found swastikas in the restroom. Plenty of cases of over working employees and holding them to unrealistic expectations, as well as ignoring government regulations like the COVID lockdowns. https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-tried-to-destroy-a-whistleblower-spies-on-em-1833264505 https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-tried-to-destroy-a-whistleblo...
maxdo 5y ago
I'd say it's a positive sign, they still operate like startup.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  if the hallmarks of a startup are a lack of foresight, poor planning, incompetence and ignoring the law, then you have a good case.
  - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
    I mean...
- WJW 5y ago
  That's not "operating like a startup", that is just plain illegal behavior. This is a company that operates heavy industrial equipment and makes machines that can kill both the people inside and outside them when they are shoddily built. Moving fast and breaking stuff is not acceptable when you are the size of Tesla.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago

Wow, that's intense! And because of mismanagement or work style or something else? My impression is that Tesla/SpaceX really drive people hard and I'm not sure how well that culture flies in Germany. Edit - saw your edit, thanks for clarifying!

progx 5y ago
If you got no stock options or anything else, why should you work in germany more than 35 hours for a company? When you work more for more money, the taxes explode.
- volta83 5y ago
  Stock options are "salary" in Germany, and they get taxed at ~45%. --- In Germany, everything that a company gives an employee is salary. Company car? You have to pay 1% of the listing price of the car _per month_ in taxes (that's 1000$ per month in taxes for the employee if their company gives them a 100k$ car..). Stock? The day you receive the stock, price is measured, and 45% you pay in taxes. Stock options? The day you receive the option, the price of the stock were you to exercise it right away is measured, and that's taxed with 45% (which kind of forces you to exercise at least some of the options to pay the taxes), etc. Otherwise companies could pay you by paying your whole life (car, house, etc.) to avoid taxes. BTW, this is also why startup culture in Germany sucks. Startups can't really pay people in stock options, cause they are super highly taxed, and they are hard to value. Worst case you end up paying a lot of taxes for something that ends up being valued == 0 the moment you can't sell it (startup dies).
  - foepys 5y ago
    Correction, you have to declare (or whatever you call "anrechnen") 1% of the company car that you are allowed use in your free time, which often works out cheaper than a privately owned car. In the end you pay at max 45% of the 1% for it, although 45% only applies to every € over 250,000€/year. For every € between about 60,000€/year and 250,000€ you are taxed 42%.
    - volta83 5y ago
      That’s correct, but if you want to actually not pay the 1%, you need to justify how much time you use the car privately or for work, and the way you do that is per km: by tracking all trips that you make in kms and tracking how many of those are private or work (car book). You can also pay 0% for the company car, but then you need to use it only for work, keep it parked at your employers, can’t use it for anything private, etc. What most people understand by getting a company car is “a car that you can use for whatever whenever and however you want” (it’s your car). If you do that, and only use it privately, then 1% is what you pay.
  - notanormalnerd 5y ago
    That is just wrong. You have to tax the 1% of the list price, 0,5% for hybrid and electric and 0,1% for ebikes and bikes. Also you don't have to pay the 45%. That is the highest tax bracket in the progessive system. So you have to put the 1% (1000€ for a really expensive car you probably only get as a CEO) and assume that as payout. And then you tax that. For a good car you normally are in the range of 300-500€ a month for normal employees and then you can even pay the gas which is a bigger benefit for most people. Also you don't have to pay taxes on unrealised gains, that is just bullshit. You have to pay taxes only when you realise those gains, e.g. when you pull the option and sell or keep the shares. As long as it is just options you don't have to pay anything. But with your level of tax knowledge I would also be scared of the bad bad Finanzamt. OwO
    - llampx 5y ago
      Sorry, the parent comment is completely correct. Yes, exceptions exist, such as someone making 32k€ and given a hybrid/EV or e-bike as company car will not pay as much as an engineer making 80k€ and a diesel Passat. Otherwise, the comment is correct. Taxes are kind of insane in Germany. Stock options (or crypto) counted as regular income _are_ taxed at your marginal tax rate, which, for anyone making above 55k€ or so is either 42% or 45%. Can't be bothered to look it up.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  I hear this 35h/week thing in Germany a lot around here but when looking for tech jobs there all companies I saw expect 40h/week, so which is it? Or is 35 the standard for government workers and unionized companies like in construction?
  - volta83 5y ago
    35h/week is IG metall, i.e., "metal works" / mechanical engineering work, machine manufacturing, etc. Think Daimler, BMW, Thyssen, Porsche, VW, Bosch, ... > Or is 35 the standard for government workers Government workers typically have 40h/week, but govenrment supports 50% and 75% time (so 20h/week or 30h/week) with the corresponding reduction in salary. > tech jobs That's usually 40h/week unless you do a tech job at a "metal works" company like BMW, VW, Porsche, etc. in which case its 35h/week. Outside of these companies, you can negotiate your work time pretty much freely up to the legal limits for salaried employees. Legal limit on a particular day is 10h/day, and you need 1 day off per week, so your max weekly workload can be 60h/week. However, the legal limit _on average_ is like 45-50h/week, so if you work 60h one week, you have to work 20 the next one to avoid violating the average limit. These legal limits are actually very harshly enforced. It isn't uncommon for, e.g., chinese companies to get fined in germany for violating this, and after the first fine, they are required to report the exact work times of each employee. The fines grow significantly, so usually chinese companies end up closing the office and kicking everyone out after 40h/week to avoid getting close to a second fine.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      I used to work for a company that had a very hard time getting used to the culture. The "You will do X", followed by our "well actually..." reply, was quite common in the early years.
  - anotheryou 5y ago
    You are allowed to reduce hours by law (at least at above 20 employees (and after probation time))
- raverbashing 5y ago
  This is a common myth, but you'll never get less money in your account by earning more. Never. (If other conditions remain the same, naturally)
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    > This is a common myth, but you'll never get less money in your account by earning more. Never. (If other conditions remain the same, naturally) That wasn't the original claim. If you're paying a high marginal tax rate, you may be making a nonnegative amount of money, but that doesn't mean it's a sufficient incentive to get you to do work when you'd sooner play video games. But on top of that, it isn't even true. It's not unheard of for marginal rates in practice to exceed 100% as a result of overlapping benefits phase outs. You pay a 25% tax rate, an education benefit phases out at a rate of 25%, a housing benefit phases out at a rate of 30%, a childcare benefit phases out at a rate of 25%, you earn an extra $1 and the government takes $1.05. This also doesn't account for the cost of earning the money. Your boss offers you an extra half shift, but then you pay the commuting cost (say $10) for 4 hours instead of 8. If your hourly rate is $10, maybe you still take it and make $30. If it's $10/hour but there is a 50% marginal rate, you spend two hours commuting and four hours working to come home with $10/day, and screw that. If the marginal rate was 80%, you're nominally "making" $8/day but in practice you're losing $2/day (and the six hours of time).
  - volta83 5y ago
    No, but you can earn more per year and earn much less per hour of work. That’s the problem with Tesla in Germany: annual salary is 10-20% higher, hourly salary is 30% lower. My friends quitting lost in yearly salary, but won huge in hourly rate.
camjohnson26 5y ago
This type of behavior and far worse has been well documented at Fremont. There’s multiple lawsuits currently open, including one black employee who was called the n word multiple times by a superior and found swastikas in the restroom. Plenty of cases of over working employees and holding them to unrealistic expectations, as well as ignoring government regulations like the COVID lockdowns. https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-tried-to-destroy-a-whistleblower-spies-on-em-1833264505 https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-tried-to-destroy-a-whistleblo...

maxdo 5y ago

I'd say it's a positive sign, they still operate like startup.

eldaisfish 5y ago
if the hallmarks of a startup are a lack of foresight, poor planning, incompetence and ignoring the law, then you have a good case.
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  I mean...
WJW 5y ago
That's not "operating like a startup", that is just plain illegal behavior. This is a company that operates heavy industrial equipment and makes machines that can kill both the people inside and outside them when they are shoddily built. Moving fast and breaking stuff is not acceptable when you are the size of Tesla.