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Thanks for sharing this, indeed it was helpful (and the automatic translation from German to English wasn't bad at all). I am a bit surprised that things are go

Thanks for sharing this, indeed it was helpful (and the automatic translation from German to English wasn't bad at all). I am a bit surprised that things are going wrong this often (if indeed it is neglect rather than intentional) as I would have thought they'd have this down pat given their work in Fremont/Nevada/Shanghai already.

volta83 5y ago
I know a couple of people (EDIT: two people) that have started working for Tesla in Germany and the one that was there the longest quit in less than 6 months. Basically, Tesla does not pay enough here for competent people to work for them. EDIT: For mechanical and civil engineers, they pay ~10-20% more than market average, but market average works 9-4 (35h/week), has a pretty relaxed work, colleagues are also relaxed, etc. These type of people are used to a very relaxed life, spending lots of time with their kids, leaving their work phone at work, not checking emails after work or on the weekends, etc. In Tesla you work your ass off, work shifts, there is apparently a high level of incompetency, high turnover, lots of stress to deliver impossible things, etc. A very skilled friend told me he wouldn't do it for less than 3x their actual salary. For 20% more the offer made absolutely no sense. I think he was there for ~2 months or so. He took a pay cut for their next job, and did so very happily. If the only people you can attract are juniors without anybody to help them grow, well this is what you get.
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  Wow, that's intense! And because of mismanagement or work style or something else? My impression is that Tesla/SpaceX really drive people hard and I'm not sure how well that culture flies in Germany. Edit - saw your edit, thanks for clarifying!
  - progx 5y ago
    If you got no stock options or anything else, why should you work in germany more than 35 hours for a company? When you work more for more money, the taxes explode.
    - volta83 5y ago
      Stock options are "salary" in Germany, and they get taxed at ~45%. --- In Germany, everything that a company gives an employee is salary. Company car? You have to pay 1% of the listing price of the car _per month_ in taxes (that's 1000$ per month in taxes for the employee if their company gives them a 100k$ car..). Stock? The day you receive the stock, price is measured, and 45% you pay in taxes. Stock options? The day you receive the option, the price of the stock were you to exercise it right away is measured, and that's taxed with 45% (which kind of forces you to exercise at least some of the options to pay the taxes), etc. Otherwise companies could pay you by paying your whole life (car, house, etc.) to avoid taxes. BTW, this is also why startup culture in Germany sucks. Startups can't really pay people in stock options, cause they are super highly taxed, and they are hard to value. Worst case you end up paying a lot of taxes for something that ends up being valued == 0 the moment you can't sell it (startup dies).
      - foepys 5y ago
        Correction, you have to declare (or whatever you call "anrechnen") 1% of the company car that you are allowed use in your free time, which often works out cheaper than a privately owned car. In the end you pay at max 45% of the 1% for it, although 45% only applies to every € over 250,000€/year. For every € between about 60,000€/year and 250,000€ you are taxed 42%.
        volta83 5y ago
        That’s correct, but if you want to actually not pay the 1%, you need to justify how much time you use the car privately or for work, and the way you do that is per km: by tracking all trips that you make in kms and tracking how many of those are private or work (car book). You can also pay 0% for the company car, but then you need to use it only for work, keep it parked at your employers, can’t use it for anything private, etc. What most people understand by getting a company car is “a car that you can use for whatever whenever and however you want” (it’s your car). If you do that, and only use it privately, then 1% is what you pay.
      - notanormalnerd 5y ago
  - camjohnson26 5y ago
    This type of behavior and far worse has been well documented at Fremont. There’s multiple lawsuits currently open, including one black employee who was called the n word multiple times by a superior and found swastikas in the restroom. Plenty of cases of over working employees and holding them to unrealistic expectations, as well as ignoring government regulations like the COVID lockdowns. https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-tried-to-destroy-a-whistleblower-spies-on-em-1833264505 https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-tried-to-destroy-a-whistleblo...
- maxdo 5y ago
  I'd say it's a positive sign, they still operate like startup.
  - eldaisfish 5y ago
    if the hallmarks of a startup are a lack of foresight, poor planning, incompetence and ignoring the law, then you have a good case.
    - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
      I mean...
  - WJW 5y ago
    That's not "operating like a startup", that is just plain illegal behavior. This is a company that operates heavy industrial equipment and makes machines that can kill both the people inside and outside them when they are shoddily built. Moving fast and breaking stuff is not acceptable when you are the size of Tesla.

volta83 5y ago

I know a couple of people (EDIT: two people) that have started working for Tesla in Germany and the one that was there the longest quit in less than 6 months. Basically, Tesla does not pay enough here for competent people to work for them. EDIT: For mechanical and civil engineers, they pay ~10-20% more than market average, but market average works 9-4 (35h/week), has a pretty relaxed work, colleagues are also relaxed, etc. These type of people are used to a very relaxed life, spending lots of time with their kids, leaving their work phone at work, not checking emails after work or on the weekends, etc. In Tesla you work your ass off, work shifts, there is apparently a high level of incompetency, high turnover, lots of stress to deliver impossible things, etc. A very skilled friend told me he wouldn't do it for less than 3x their actual salary. For 20% more the offer made absolutely no sense. I think he was there for ~2 months or so. He took a pay cut for their next job, and did so very happily. If the only people you can attract are juniors without anybody to help them grow, well this is what you get.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
Wow, that's intense! And because of mismanagement or work style or something else? My impression is that Tesla/SpaceX really drive people hard and I'm not sure how well that culture flies in Germany. Edit - saw your edit, thanks for clarifying!
- progx 5y ago
  If you got no stock options or anything else, why should you work in germany more than 35 hours for a company? When you work more for more money, the taxes explode.
  - volta83 5y ago
    Stock options are "salary" in Germany, and they get taxed at ~45%. --- In Germany, everything that a company gives an employee is salary. Company car? You have to pay 1% of the listing price of the car _per month_ in taxes (that's 1000$ per month in taxes for the employee if their company gives them a 100k$ car..). Stock? The day you receive the stock, price is measured, and 45% you pay in taxes. Stock options? The day you receive the option, the price of the stock were you to exercise it right away is measured, and that's taxed with 45% (which kind of forces you to exercise at least some of the options to pay the taxes), etc. Otherwise companies could pay you by paying your whole life (car, house, etc.) to avoid taxes. BTW, this is also why startup culture in Germany sucks. Startups can't really pay people in stock options, cause they are super highly taxed, and they are hard to value. Worst case you end up paying a lot of taxes for something that ends up being valued == 0 the moment you can't sell it (startup dies).
    - foepys 5y ago
      Correction, you have to declare (or whatever you call "anrechnen") 1% of the company car that you are allowed use in your free time, which often works out cheaper than a privately owned car. In the end you pay at max 45% of the 1% for it, although 45% only applies to every € over 250,000€/year. For every € between about 60,000€/year and 250,000€ you are taxed 42%.
      - volta83 5y ago
        That’s correct, but if you want to actually not pay the 1%, you need to justify how much time you use the car privately or for work, and the way you do that is per km: by tracking all trips that you make in kms and tracking how many of those are private or work (car book). You can also pay 0% for the company car, but then you need to use it only for work, keep it parked at your employers, can’t use it for anything private, etc. What most people understand by getting a company car is “a car that you can use for whatever whenever and however you want” (it’s your car). If you do that, and only use it privately, then 1% is what you pay.
    - notanormalnerd 5y ago
- camjohnson26 5y ago
  This type of behavior and far worse has been well documented at Fremont. There’s multiple lawsuits currently open, including one black employee who was called the n word multiple times by a superior and found swastikas in the restroom. Plenty of cases of over working employees and holding them to unrealistic expectations, as well as ignoring government regulations like the COVID lockdowns. https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-tried-to-destroy-a-whistleblower-spies-on-em-1833264505 https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-tried-to-destroy-a-whistleblo...
maxdo 5y ago
I'd say it's a positive sign, they still operate like startup.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  if the hallmarks of a startup are a lack of foresight, poor planning, incompetence and ignoring the law, then you have a good case.
  - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
    I mean...
- WJW 5y ago
  That's not "operating like a startup", that is just plain illegal behavior. This is a company that operates heavy industrial equipment and makes machines that can kill both the people inside and outside them when they are shoddily built. Moving fast and breaking stuff is not acceptable when you are the size of Tesla.