6 ms·

> I’d definitely put Apple in the top tier of phone and laptop quality. Especially w.r.t laptops, the majority of Windows devices seem comparatively low quality

by Fnoord 5y ago

> I’d definitely put Apple in the top tier of phone and laptop quality. Especially w.r.t laptops, the majority of Windows devices seem comparatively low quality. I’m not sure about their other products but I also don’t see them advertised as much. Every MBP/MBA/MB had design flaws. From butterfly keyboard to discrete GPU, only 1 port (USB-C, for battery), etc. They fixed the keyboard problem finally, but from 2016-2019 it was terrible.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
I have yet to see a better laptop for 90% of people who want a laptop than a MacBook Air. Battery life, portability, weight, heat production, reliability, adequate performance, price, ports. They seem to have made all the right compromises.
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  I think you might be neglecting to include people that like high performance dedicated GPUs - (A) scientists, (B) engineers, (C) developers, (D) artists, (E)motion graphics types, (F) gamers. Professionally speaking, my work is full of A-E, so, an Air is a big nope.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    …that’s why I wrote 90% of people. Maybe it’s 80% or 70%, but it certainly is top of the line for the average user.
    - deregulateMed 5y ago
      You mentioned reliability, but I remember the butterfly keyboard debacle that was denied by Apple for years.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        The MacBook Air never had the butterfly keyboard.
  - gmadsen 5y ago
    you think those are the majority of laptop buyers?
- deregulateMed 5y ago
  The price is poor and the performance is worse(compared to anything with a GPU). Reliability is questionable given the numerous hardware issues Apple denied over the years. And I'm shocked you thought to mention Ports. I've been at parties where someone couldn't present a PowerPoint because of the ports on the Air.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    They started at $900, had 2 USB 3.0 ports, a headphone jack, an SD card slot, and a thunderbolt 2 port for many years. Again, note the nuance in my statement that it serves the purpose for the vast majority of laptop users and its amortized cost over many years is certainly less than other consumer laptops, as evidenced by the used market. Nowadays, they are $1k, and they have Retina screen, 2 USB4/Thunderbolt3 ports. While the port situation may have worsened, its performance due to M1 is surely unmatched. Unless you are bothered by the port situation, it's still probably the best bet you can make for a laptop that will be a good to go for 5+ years.
    - deregulateMed 5y ago
      Majority of laptop users won't need to hook up their computer to a TV? And M1 still is inferior to having a gpu.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        >Majority of laptop users won't need to hook up their computer to a TV? I would be very surprised if even 10% of people connect their laptops to TVs. For those that do, thunderbolt to hdmi adapters are cheap. > And M1 still is inferior to having a gpu. I am sure it is, but average person sees no utility from a GPU, but they do utilize long battery life and less heat from reduced energy usage of M1.
        deregulateMed 5y ago
        Apple not good for power users. Got it. So why would a consumer who isn't a power user spend more money on less? Lighted logo?
- anotherman554 5y ago
  "Price" seems like a stretch. Windows laptops start at something like $700 dollars cheaper for a new device.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    And they are made of inferior quality components not comparable to an Air. See used prices for evidence.
    - anotherman554 5y ago
      I never claimed they had the same components, just that it's a stretch to think most people would obtain sufficient value by paying hundreds more.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        That is possible, but a new Air was $900 for the longest time. $700 cheaper is a laptop starting at $200, and I don’t believe any laptop even $500 or less would have been made with components likely to last for many years. It’s like that story about a poor person having to spend more in the long run buying boots every year than being able to spend a little more to buy ones that lasted many years.
    - deregulateMed 5y ago
      You get a graphics card for $550, many types of ports... And you think the Air is Superior?
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        For most people who just want basic spreadsheet, web browsing, photo managing, email, word processing, or other similar purposes where a graphics card makes no difference, yes. We are long past the times where the average person needs to even think about laptop specs other than whether or not it has a sufficient size SSD, the battery life is long, and it does not get hot.
GavinMcG 5y ago
Aside from the keyboard issues, you're talking about design choices you don't like, not design flaws. They made the choices they made, and by and large executed on them at a high degree of quality.
- wayneftw 5y ago
  A bad design choice is exactly what a design flaw is though. There's no other definition. If you make bad choices, that's a flaw in your design. End users have to live with these choices, so we get to decide what is a flaw and what is not. Focusing on thin instead of useful is a design flaw. Requiring dongles for everything is a design flaw.
  - GavinMcG 5y ago
    "Flawed" does not simply mean "bad". It means "defective" or "broken" or "blemished" or the like. A poor design is merely unappealing to certain consumers. A flawed design fails to fully function in the manner intended.
    - Fnoord 5y ago
      Ah yeah, "certain users". These "certain users" who like to charge their laptop while using one peripheral. These "certain users" who use a USB hub on their only USB port. Come on. Its a flat out downgrade to what was possible in the past. We all know why they made the terrible design choice. Upselling to a non-broken device. They do the same with GB storage on their iDevices. And, all of their devices had design flaws.
  - sosborn 5y ago
    > End users have to live with these choices, so we get to decide what is a flaw and what is not. This is true, but it isn't some collective decision. Something you consider a design flaw others might see as a design win.
  - melq 5y ago
    You don't seem to understand the difference between a design choice you don't like, versus an objectively bad design. When Apple removed the headphone jack from iPhones, (supposedly) in favor of making them waterproof, that was a design choice that many people rightfully disliked. However, we can imagine there was also a population of people who preferred such a tradeoff. For instance: lifeguards, sea-world trainers, deaf people. It's not a 'flaw' simply because you don't prefer it. If you are someone who buys a diving watch, but isn't a deep sea diver, you aren't justified in complaining that the watch isn't solar powered. There are people who require (or at least prefer) such a watch, and if you aren't among them, don't buy it. You don't get to decide what is and isn't a flaw based on your arbitrary use cases. An actual flaw is an implementation detail that is not consistent with the design specs. If Apple set out to make a phone with a working headphone jack, and the resulting product didn't have one, thats a flaw. If they set out to make a phone without a headphone jack, then it isn't a design flaw if the resulting phone doesn't have one.

by Fnoord 5y ago

lotsofpulp 5y ago

I have yet to see a better laptop for 90% of people who want a laptop than a MacBook Air. Battery life, portability, weight, heat production, reliability, adequate performance, price, ports. They seem to have made all the right compromises.

OrvalWintermute 5y ago
I think you might be neglecting to include people that like high performance dedicated GPUs - (A) scientists, (B) engineers, (C) developers, (D) artists, (E)motion graphics types, (F) gamers. Professionally speaking, my work is full of A-E, so, an Air is a big nope.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  …that’s why I wrote 90% of people. Maybe it’s 80% or 70%, but it certainly is top of the line for the average user.
  - deregulateMed 5y ago
    You mentioned reliability, but I remember the butterfly keyboard debacle that was denied by Apple for years.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      The MacBook Air never had the butterfly keyboard.
- gmadsen 5y ago
  you think those are the majority of laptop buyers?
deregulateMed 5y ago
The price is poor and the performance is worse(compared to anything with a GPU). Reliability is questionable given the numerous hardware issues Apple denied over the years. And I'm shocked you thought to mention Ports. I've been at parties where someone couldn't present a PowerPoint because of the ports on the Air.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  They started at $900, had 2 USB 3.0 ports, a headphone jack, an SD card slot, and a thunderbolt 2 port for many years. Again, note the nuance in my statement that it serves the purpose for the vast majority of laptop users and its amortized cost over many years is certainly less than other consumer laptops, as evidenced by the used market. Nowadays, they are $1k, and they have Retina screen, 2 USB4/Thunderbolt3 ports. While the port situation may have worsened, its performance due to M1 is surely unmatched. Unless you are bothered by the port situation, it's still probably the best bet you can make for a laptop that will be a good to go for 5+ years.
  - deregulateMed 5y ago
    Majority of laptop users won't need to hook up their computer to a TV? And M1 still is inferior to having a gpu.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      >Majority of laptop users won't need to hook up their computer to a TV? I would be very surprised if even 10% of people connect their laptops to TVs. For those that do, thunderbolt to hdmi adapters are cheap. > And M1 still is inferior to having a gpu. I am sure it is, but average person sees no utility from a GPU, but they do utilize long battery life and less heat from reduced energy usage of M1.
      - deregulateMed 5y ago
        Apple not good for power users. Got it. So why would a consumer who isn't a power user spend more money on less? Lighted logo?
anotherman554 5y ago
"Price" seems like a stretch. Windows laptops start at something like $700 dollars cheaper for a new device.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  And they are made of inferior quality components not comparable to an Air. See used prices for evidence.
  - anotherman554 5y ago
    I never claimed they had the same components, just that it's a stretch to think most people would obtain sufficient value by paying hundreds more.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      That is possible, but a new Air was $900 for the longest time. $700 cheaper is a laptop starting at $200, and I don’t believe any laptop even $500 or less would have been made with components likely to last for many years. It’s like that story about a poor person having to spend more in the long run buying boots every year than being able to spend a little more to buy ones that lasted many years.
  - deregulateMed 5y ago
    You get a graphics card for $550, many types of ports... And you think the Air is Superior?
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      For most people who just want basic spreadsheet, web browsing, photo managing, email, word processing, or other similar purposes where a graphics card makes no difference, yes. We are long past the times where the average person needs to even think about laptop specs other than whether or not it has a sufficient size SSD, the battery life is long, and it does not get hot.

GavinMcG 5y ago

Aside from the keyboard issues, you're talking about design choices you don't like, not design flaws. They made the choices they made, and by and large executed on them at a high degree of quality.

wayneftw 5y ago
A bad design choice is exactly what a design flaw is though. There's no other definition. If you make bad choices, that's a flaw in your design. End users have to live with these choices, so we get to decide what is a flaw and what is not. Focusing on thin instead of useful is a design flaw. Requiring dongles for everything is a design flaw.
- GavinMcG 5y ago
  "Flawed" does not simply mean "bad". It means "defective" or "broken" or "blemished" or the like. A poor design is merely unappealing to certain consumers. A flawed design fails to fully function in the manner intended.
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    Ah yeah, "certain users". These "certain users" who like to charge their laptop while using one peripheral. These "certain users" who use a USB hub on their only USB port. Come on. Its a flat out downgrade to what was possible in the past. We all know why they made the terrible design choice. Upselling to a non-broken device. They do the same with GB storage on their iDevices. And, all of their devices had design flaws.
- sosborn 5y ago
  > End users have to live with these choices, so we get to decide what is a flaw and what is not. This is true, but it isn't some collective decision. Something you consider a design flaw others might see as a design win.
- melq 5y ago
  You don't seem to understand the difference between a design choice you don't like, versus an objectively bad design. When Apple removed the headphone jack from iPhones, (supposedly) in favor of making them waterproof, that was a design choice that many people rightfully disliked. However, we can imagine there was also a population of people who preferred such a tradeoff. For instance: lifeguards, sea-world trainers, deaf people. It's not a 'flaw' simply because you don't prefer it. If you are someone who buys a diving watch, but isn't a deep sea diver, you aren't justified in complaining that the watch isn't solar powered. There are people who require (or at least prefer) such a watch, and if you aren't among them, don't buy it. You don't get to decide what is and isn't a flaw based on your arbitrary use cases. An actual flaw is an implementation detail that is not consistent with the design specs. If Apple set out to make a phone with a working headphone jack, and the resulting product didn't have one, thats a flaw. If they set out to make a phone without a headphone jack, then it isn't a design flaw if the resulting phone doesn't have one.