4 ms·

The real story here is that cheating is rampant, everyone knows it, and that the universities (as opposed to individual professors) are not prepared to do what

The real story here is that cheating is rampant, everyone knows it, and that the universities (as opposed to individual professors) are not prepared to do what is necessary to stop it. I'm speaking, of course, of measures like expulsion. Too much of a hit to the bottom line, too much messy litigation, and too much bad PR. All of this is another way of making your point, which is that the core mission of universities has drifted away from idealized learning to big business and sports. I suspect the entire thing needs to be nuked from orbit before it can be rebuilt and I'm happy to see COVID accelerating the process.

gambiting 5y ago
Again, I think the problem is elsewhere. Where I'm from(Poland) cheating is rampant and universities have absolutely no trouble kicking people out over it. Got caught cheating? Good bye, apply again next year. It doesn't lead to litigation or messy PR. Maybe it's because all universities are free to attend so no one can argue that they paid for something they aren't getting - all they are losing is their own time.
- basisword 5y ago
  I went to university a bit later in life. When I was in high school smartphones weren’t a thing yet and cheating in exams was difficult and not common. At university cheating seemed rampant and easy. It was easy to spot the potential cheaters but not easy to prove they were cheating so they got away with it. You just go to the bathroom (in a long exam they can’t exactly stop you from this) and you have all your notes on your phone. There were people I’m surprised got into the university in the first place getting really good grades because of this. It was frustrating but I’m not sure what universities can do in this case. It seems to me that the “exam” process needs rethought entirely. I’m not sure how it could be changed but it is far too easy to cheat now. Like a lot of things in life too, the dishonest people tend to get away with it and manage to succeed while some portion of the honest people work very hard and struggle.
  - ttonelli 5y ago
    Maybe making questions that you have to think about instead of just looking up the answer would help?
    - basisword 5y ago
      Depends on the subject. In a long form essay where you need to cite sources or technical details you could make a big difference to your score by quickly looking these up. Nobody can go into the exam blind but they can improve their answers significantly by looking up the details that others have to spend a long time trying to remember. For example in an English exam, direct quotations from literature. Or in a law exam, case names.
      - Fredej 5y ago
        But why should you not be allowed to look them up? Isn't that just testing for memory rather than comprehension?
        kwhitefoot 5y ago
        Beats me. A well designed exam asks one to apply knowledge not to regurgitate it. You should be able to look up any of the supporting information but you also need to be able to organize that information. All of my BSc Applied Physics exams including the final (Exeter Uni. 1977) were open note and this really helped sort the competent students from those who thought that they were at university to learn facts. The latter brought fifty litre rucksacks full of notes in to the finals and without exception either failed entirely or scraped through to third class honours. They seemed to have not realized that the faculty would not set questions that could be directly answered by looking up the question in one's notes. The best example was the final quantum mechanics paper which did not contain a single question that had a direct answer in the notes we had taken or the textbooks we had used. My most recent exam was a C# course and that exam was open book. It wasn't as extreme as my QM final but had basically the same idea: apply what you have learnt.
      - 5y ago
- blagie 5y ago
  I'm not sure that would fly in the Western world. Poland has a completely different culture from Western Europe or the US. It's rapidly Westernizing, but it's still a world of difference. I think it's a pity. I prefer Slavic cultures to Western. One of the things which bugs me most is how modern Poland is starting to have the same surface, insincere friendliness as the West. - EU membership is clearly a net win, but doesn't help preserve Polish culture. - Many of the cultural differences are not recognized on either side -- people say the same things sometimes, but it takes deep digging to understand that they mean very different things. - Historically, Poles also looked up to and tried to emulate the West, which is part of the reason the culture is shifting so rapidly. So the change was rapid, but far from complete.
- hobofan 5y ago
  > Good bye, apply again next year. Apply again next year? In Germany, a university expulsion usually comes with a lifetime ban on studying the same subject again.
  - fouc 5y ago
    in Canada you'd likely be unable to get into ANY university with a note about plagiarism in your records.
    - corty 5y ago
      Same in Germany, but universities don't always share records. You are supposed to fill in a form on immatriculation where you state previous universities and why/how you left there, and you will get expelled if you lie on that form. However, if you pass your final exam without getting caught, there is a good chance you'll get away with it.
Bayart 5y ago
>Too much of a hit to the bottom line, too much messy litigation, and too much bad PR. Well, that wouldn't be a problem to the person you're answering to, considering German universities aren't businesses who take people in for capital (both financial and social). In France it's certainly very easy to get yourself thrown out for cheating or not showing up.
asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
A sibling was caught cheating in university. This would have been around ten years ago. He wasn't expelled, but he was suspended for the remainder of the semester and failed on all his classes that term. I don't remember if he finished uni late as a result or did makeup work during the summer.
- ev1 5y ago
  being forced to do an extra semester costing like 50k+ results in some very interesting incentives, or lawsuits, when profit is involved..
Grimm1 5y ago
Idk cheating in the college I was in (Top #30 US Institution) was punished severely. I fondly remember my Data Structures professor, bluntly telling us she'd end our academic careers if we were caught cheating. Fondly because she was a great professor who clearly had no time or patience for that kind of bs. It was school policy for expulsion, and this is a very well known school. This of course may have changed dramatically in the last two years given the major shift in how we all live but I would suspect that this is more common than you think.
- ticviking 5y ago
  How many people do you know of who failed a class or were expelled for that kind of thing? Where there ever any rumors of that kind of thing. In a large enough class someone will be tempted to cheat, and if the school is taking decisive action there will be rumors even if they are making great effort to protect the students privacy and make the discipline a learning experience
  - Grimm1 5y ago
    Rumors yes, there were rumors of people getting caught cheating, but I didn't know anyone personally. The people I knew on a personal basis weren't the kind to do that or really care about it enough to do so and without going into a story about the people I know and how we're all doing well in life you'll have to take my word for it.
unishark 5y ago
Universities will definitely expel cheaters, though they may give a couple chances first (with increasingly-worse penalties like failing grade and violation on transcript). One of the things people are complaining about with this software is people claiming to be wrongly punished. Typically there's a faculty union or senate which negotiates policies with the administration. Individual professors aren't all alone in the fight. Though they may individually choose to give lax punishments or look the other way.

gambiting 5y ago

Again, I think the problem is elsewhere. Where I'm from(Poland) cheating is rampant and universities have absolutely no trouble kicking people out over it. Got caught cheating? Good bye, apply again next year. It doesn't lead to litigation or messy PR. Maybe it's because all universities are free to attend so no one can argue that they paid for something they aren't getting - all they are losing is their own time.

basisword 5y ago
I went to university a bit later in life. When I was in high school smartphones weren’t a thing yet and cheating in exams was difficult and not common. At university cheating seemed rampant and easy. It was easy to spot the potential cheaters but not easy to prove they were cheating so they got away with it. You just go to the bathroom (in a long exam they can’t exactly stop you from this) and you have all your notes on your phone. There were people I’m surprised got into the university in the first place getting really good grades because of this. It was frustrating but I’m not sure what universities can do in this case. It seems to me that the “exam” process needs rethought entirely. I’m not sure how it could be changed but it is far too easy to cheat now. Like a lot of things in life too, the dishonest people tend to get away with it and manage to succeed while some portion of the honest people work very hard and struggle.
- ttonelli 5y ago
  Maybe making questions that you have to think about instead of just looking up the answer would help?
  - basisword 5y ago
    Depends on the subject. In a long form essay where you need to cite sources or technical details you could make a big difference to your score by quickly looking these up. Nobody can go into the exam blind but they can improve their answers significantly by looking up the details that others have to spend a long time trying to remember. For example in an English exam, direct quotations from literature. Or in a law exam, case names.
    - Fredej 5y ago
      But why should you not be allowed to look them up? Isn't that just testing for memory rather than comprehension?
      - kwhitefoot 5y ago
        Beats me. A well designed exam asks one to apply knowledge not to regurgitate it. You should be able to look up any of the supporting information but you also need to be able to organize that information. All of my BSc Applied Physics exams including the final (Exeter Uni. 1977) were open note and this really helped sort the competent students from those who thought that they were at university to learn facts. The latter brought fifty litre rucksacks full of notes in to the finals and without exception either failed entirely or scraped through to third class honours. They seemed to have not realized that the faculty would not set questions that could be directly answered by looking up the question in one's notes. The best example was the final quantum mechanics paper which did not contain a single question that had a direct answer in the notes we had taken or the textbooks we had used. My most recent exam was a C# course and that exam was open book. It wasn't as extreme as my QM final but had basically the same idea: apply what you have learnt.
    - 5y ago
blagie 5y ago
I'm not sure that would fly in the Western world. Poland has a completely different culture from Western Europe or the US. It's rapidly Westernizing, but it's still a world of difference. I think it's a pity. I prefer Slavic cultures to Western. One of the things which bugs me most is how modern Poland is starting to have the same surface, insincere friendliness as the West. - EU membership is clearly a net win, but doesn't help preserve Polish culture. - Many of the cultural differences are not recognized on either side -- people say the same things sometimes, but it takes deep digging to understand that they mean very different things. - Historically, Poles also looked up to and tried to emulate the West, which is part of the reason the culture is shifting so rapidly. So the change was rapid, but far from complete.
hobofan 5y ago
> Good bye, apply again next year. Apply again next year? In Germany, a university expulsion usually comes with a lifetime ban on studying the same subject again.
- fouc 5y ago
  in Canada you'd likely be unable to get into ANY university with a note about plagiarism in your records.
  - corty 5y ago
    Same in Germany, but universities don't always share records. You are supposed to fill in a form on immatriculation where you state previous universities and why/how you left there, and you will get expelled if you lie on that form. However, if you pass your final exam without getting caught, there is a good chance you'll get away with it.

Bayart 5y ago

>Too much of a hit to the bottom line, too much messy litigation, and too much bad PR. Well, that wouldn't be a problem to the person you're answering to, considering German universities aren't businesses who take people in for capital (both financial and social). In France it's certainly very easy to get yourself thrown out for cheating or not showing up.

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago

A sibling was caught cheating in university. This would have been around ten years ago. He wasn't expelled, but he was suspended for the remainder of the semester and failed on all his classes that term. I don't remember if he finished uni late as a result or did makeup work during the summer.

ev1 5y ago
being forced to do an extra semester costing like 50k+ results in some very interesting incentives, or lawsuits, when profit is involved..

Grimm1 5y ago

Idk cheating in the college I was in (Top #30 US Institution) was punished severely. I fondly remember my Data Structures professor, bluntly telling us she'd end our academic careers if we were caught cheating. Fondly because she was a great professor who clearly had no time or patience for that kind of bs. It was school policy for expulsion, and this is a very well known school. This of course may have changed dramatically in the last two years given the major shift in how we all live but I would suspect that this is more common than you think.

ticviking 5y ago
How many people do you know of who failed a class or were expelled for that kind of thing? Where there ever any rumors of that kind of thing. In a large enough class someone will be tempted to cheat, and if the school is taking decisive action there will be rumors even if they are making great effort to protect the students privacy and make the discipline a learning experience
- Grimm1 5y ago
  Rumors yes, there were rumors of people getting caught cheating, but I didn't know anyone personally. The people I knew on a personal basis weren't the kind to do that or really care about it enough to do so and without going into a story about the people I know and how we're all doing well in life you'll have to take my word for it.

unishark 5y ago

Universities will definitely expel cheaters, though they may give a couple chances first (with increasingly-worse penalties like failing grade and violation on transcript). One of the things people are complaining about with this software is people claiming to be wrongly punished. Typically there's a faculty union or senate which negotiates policies with the administration. Individual professors aren't all alone in the fight. Though they may individually choose to give lax punishments or look the other way.