5 ms·

Yes it could. It would make employment statistics better, so politicians like it. My predictions: - 4 day work week, 20% reduction in pay, hence the need to t

by bserge 5y ago

Yes it could. It would make employment statistics better, so politicians like it. My predictions: - 4 day work week, 20% reduction in pay, hence the need to take up a second and even a third gig job, - The Internet is happy (we did it, 4 day work week, what is reality?), - Many well-paid people are happy, - The lowest paid are even more unhappy (2-3 extra jobs, more commute time, less free time, tax confusion), - The government likes the employment stats that hide reality, - Automation is phased in somewhat gentler than it would be if people just lost their jobs completely.

bruce343434 5y ago
This makes me wonder what the transition to the 8 hour work day was like. Did the pay stay the same? Ironically I don't have the time to research it.
- gugagore 5y ago
  Or even the transition to the 5-say work week with a weekend, which as I understand it is an outcome of labor movements.
social_quotient 5y ago
For tech consulting agencies like mine that sell hours… our revenue would reduce immediately. Projects would take roughly +20% longer. Scheduling Tetris woth stakeholders would get more difficult. Work week travel would be more challenging since I’m asking people to work on their off day. Coordinating with offshore non 4 day teams would be interesting but doable. As an employer and company owner my bias is showing but this is not where I would want to go. Stuff like this in me excel and ms project would need to be updated =NETWORKDAYS() =WORKDAY()
- gugagore 5y ago
  This is incredibly myopic. The subject at hand will certainly have sweeping effects for generations to come. It would require some changes to the way things get done. Personally I think the changes are worth it. But surely you don't actually believe that the burden of having to update some configurations has any place in an argument in defense of the status quo. Right?
  - social_quotient 5y ago
    “Having to update some configurations” is an interesting way to put it. The same could be said for DST and timezones in general. I guess the nuance I was trying to convey here is that it would be incredibly disruptive to the current rituals of working. Starting at the high level 20% less production, less salary, then to the annoying concepts like calendaring meetings and travel. Then to the myopic things like stupid excel formulas. But to your point, would I let an excel formula stop a cultural change.. obviously no and thanks for nudging me to clarify that. Change is good, healthy and expected. Questioning the status quo is always needed. I just don’t like this one, I think it’s politically motivated to further get people to be more dependent on the biz institutions/gov and further contributes to a looming debt crisis. It’s like voting for class president because they will put in a soda fountain and free candy. I think this plays out incredibly different for different classes of workers and occupations. And for those that need the hours I don’t see how this ends well. At the time based consulting level, this also includes me. Lastly it’s odd to me for so many people that we want to work less but expect to consume the same or more. We expect stores to be open 7 days a week with longer hours of availability, we expect same day shipping on unlimited products yet we don’t want to work 5 days. I just have a tough time seeing how all boats rise. Part of this seems to also be that some people can afford to work just 4 days but need society to say “it’s okay” for them to do it. Aka 4 day work weeks aren’t just for the 1%. Am I game for trying it? Sure, if it pushes humanity forward in our collective and individual endeavors, let’s give it a go.
    - gugagore 5y ago
      > we want to work less but expect to consume the same or more I think it feels clear to many people that our consumption habits are unsustainable, regardless of how much we work. And I agree, "consumption" is where the rubber meets the road. Do we want to live in a place where we are simultaneously taking steps to mitigate climate change, reform labor, while also accepting that we must reduce air travel, next-day shipping, eating foods out of season, being able to get a bag of chips any time of the day, any day of the week, etc.? In many cities of the world, it's not uncommon for e.g. the grocery store to be closed on Sunday. For sure, it's less convenient. But I think it's pretty reasonable to plan around it. I'm interested to know 1. what you mean by "looming debt crisis", 2. who stands to gain from worsening the crises. > It’s like voting for class president because they will put in a soda fountain and free candy. I appreciate that you are using soda and candy as a metaphor for frivolous changes. On the other hand, I can also see it as a metaphor for "improving material conditions". People do care about how much time they have left outside of work and I think that that is appropriate and expected. That is a concrete, material aspect of life that people understand. National debt is not. To add an additional nuance, I think promising a 4 day work week [and to hell with productivity] is crucially different from promising "clean coal" jobs [and to hell with the climate].
esperent 5y ago
> - 4 day work week, 20% reduction in pay, hence the need to take up a second and even a third gig job, A four day work week has to be introduced alongside an increase in minimum wage. Fortunately in many parts of the world we tie minimum wage to cost of living (barely, but even so, you genuinely can live on minimum wage).
apexalpha 5y ago
50% of people in my country already work 32 hours or less (75% of women and 25% of men) and no one needs a second or third job to make it work. Having shitty labour conditions is not a good argument against improving labour conditions. Since many jobs can't produce the same output with less time this will actually creates more jobs in service industry, policing, healthcare etc... Which is perfect to offset many jobs lost due to automation. Yes, those services would get more expensive (just like they are now compared to the times we worked 6 days a week) but that's just the price for 50% more free time for the rest of your working life.
- bserge 5y ago
  > and no one needs a second or third job to make it work My AI copilot autocorrected that to "I couldn't bother to look up actual statistics on this".

by bserge 5y ago

bruce343434 5y ago

This makes me wonder what the transition to the 8 hour work day was like. Did the pay stay the same? Ironically I don't have the time to research it.

gugagore 5y ago
Or even the transition to the 5-say work week with a weekend, which as I understand it is an outcome of labor movements.

social_quotient 5y ago

For tech consulting agencies like mine that sell hours… our revenue would reduce immediately. Projects would take roughly +20% longer. Scheduling Tetris woth stakeholders would get more difficult. Work week travel would be more challenging since I’m asking people to work on their off day. Coordinating with offshore non 4 day teams would be interesting but doable. As an employer and company owner my bias is showing but this is not where I would want to go. Stuff like this in me excel and ms project would need to be updated =NETWORKDAYS() =WORKDAY()

gugagore 5y ago
This is incredibly myopic. The subject at hand will certainly have sweeping effects for generations to come. It would require some changes to the way things get done. Personally I think the changes are worth it. But surely you don't actually believe that the burden of having to update some configurations has any place in an argument in defense of the status quo. Right?
- social_quotient 5y ago
  “Having to update some configurations” is an interesting way to put it. The same could be said for DST and timezones in general. I guess the nuance I was trying to convey here is that it would be incredibly disruptive to the current rituals of working. Starting at the high level 20% less production, less salary, then to the annoying concepts like calendaring meetings and travel. Then to the myopic things like stupid excel formulas. But to your point, would I let an excel formula stop a cultural change.. obviously no and thanks for nudging me to clarify that. Change is good, healthy and expected. Questioning the status quo is always needed. I just don’t like this one, I think it’s politically motivated to further get people to be more dependent on the biz institutions/gov and further contributes to a looming debt crisis. It’s like voting for class president because they will put in a soda fountain and free candy. I think this plays out incredibly different for different classes of workers and occupations. And for those that need the hours I don’t see how this ends well. At the time based consulting level, this also includes me. Lastly it’s odd to me for so many people that we want to work less but expect to consume the same or more. We expect stores to be open 7 days a week with longer hours of availability, we expect same day shipping on unlimited products yet we don’t want to work 5 days. I just have a tough time seeing how all boats rise. Part of this seems to also be that some people can afford to work just 4 days but need society to say “it’s okay” for them to do it. Aka 4 day work weeks aren’t just for the 1%. Am I game for trying it? Sure, if it pushes humanity forward in our collective and individual endeavors, let’s give it a go.
  - gugagore 5y ago
    > we want to work less but expect to consume the same or more I think it feels clear to many people that our consumption habits are unsustainable, regardless of how much we work. And I agree, "consumption" is where the rubber meets the road. Do we want to live in a place where we are simultaneously taking steps to mitigate climate change, reform labor, while also accepting that we must reduce air travel, next-day shipping, eating foods out of season, being able to get a bag of chips any time of the day, any day of the week, etc.? In many cities of the world, it's not uncommon for e.g. the grocery store to be closed on Sunday. For sure, it's less convenient. But I think it's pretty reasonable to plan around it. I'm interested to know 1. what you mean by "looming debt crisis", 2. who stands to gain from worsening the crises. > It’s like voting for class president because they will put in a soda fountain and free candy. I appreciate that you are using soda and candy as a metaphor for frivolous changes. On the other hand, I can also see it as a metaphor for "improving material conditions". People do care about how much time they have left outside of work and I think that that is appropriate and expected. That is a concrete, material aspect of life that people understand. National debt is not. To add an additional nuance, I think promising a 4 day work week [and to hell with productivity] is crucially different from promising "clean coal" jobs [and to hell with the climate].

esperent 5y ago

> - 4 day work week, 20% reduction in pay, hence the need to take up a second and even a third gig job, A four day work week has to be introduced alongside an increase in minimum wage. Fortunately in many parts of the world we tie minimum wage to cost of living (barely, but even so, you genuinely can live on minimum wage).

apexalpha 5y ago

50% of people in my country already work 32 hours or less (75% of women and 25% of men) and no one needs a second or third job to make it work. Having shitty labour conditions is not a good argument against improving labour conditions. Since many jobs can't produce the same output with less time this will actually creates more jobs in service industry, policing, healthcare etc... Which is perfect to offset many jobs lost due to automation. Yes, those services would get more expensive (just like they are now compared to the times we worked 6 days a week) but that's just the price for 50% more free time for the rest of your working life.

bserge 5y ago
> and no one needs a second or third job to make it work My AI copilot autocorrected that to "I couldn't bother to look up actual statistics on this".