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We employed the method of mixing the order of questions, not giving question titles, and having a pool of subtly different questions (a negation or a different

• undfg 5y ago
  >We employed the method of mixing the order of questions, not giving question titles, and having a pool of subtly different questions (a negation or a different constant slipped in) What an awful burden to put on the shoulders of the already overworked and underpaid professors.
  • maweki 5y ago
    We did this through the exam software (Browser-Based). Everything not checked automatically (multiple choice) was sorted by question in the backend. We (the examiners) had all the information. It was just hidden from the students.
    • undfg 5y ago
      Glad that you had an automatic system going, but most universities don't have one and can't fund its development, and wanting to shift this burden to professors is unreasonable.
      • maweki 5y ago
        In Germany we have multiple state-sponsored open-source e-learning platforms that basically all support examinations.
      • p49k 5y ago
        Your stance is that it’s unaffordable for a university to spend a small amount of money on randomized browser tests, therefore they should spend a large amount of money on intrusive spying software?
        • undfg 5y ago
          I don't believe a public institution would be able to come up with a system like this that works reasonably and have it developed in a reasonable amount of time within a reasonable budget.
          • wizzwizz4 5y ago
            > I don't believe a public institution would be able to come up with a system like this that works reasonably I don't believe “e-proctoring” companies are capable of it, either. I got disqualified from an exam for five `onblur` events (while my screen was being recorded), and it kept counting while the “DO NOT CHEAT” lockout message was displayed; if that's “works reasonably” then I don't know what isn't.
          • loktarogar 5y ago
            In 2009 I developed a system like this as part of my course at the equivalent of a community college. The premise of the class was to develop a real world application employing the skills we had learned so far (project management, programming, etc). The whole class (10 people) participated in building this software. We spent 6 months on it and as far as I heard was still in use as late as 2015. You don't have to create a whole system; just a database that prepares variants of questions, and a method to put it into the existing exam software.
          • mkl 5y ago
            Your belief is contradicted by reality. For example: https://stack-assessment.org/ https://stack-assessment.org/
    • legutierr 5y ago
      Might I ask, was the exam software you used something you acquired from a third-party, or was it something you built yourselves? Would you recommend it? I have been dissatisfied with everything we have tried so far in my organization, and what you used sounds pretty good.
      • easton 5y ago
        I don’t know what you use for your LMS, but I know Canvas can do most of that as part of its Quiz system (randomize questions given, randomize constants and answers, etc). I’m sure Blackboard and moodle have something similar. https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Instructor-Guide/How-do-I-create-a-Formula-quiz-question-with-a-single-variable/ta-p/920 https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Instructor-Guide/How-do-I...
      • maweki 5y ago
        https://github.com/ILIAS-eLearning/ILIAS https://github.com/ILIAS-eLearning/ILIAS It's a whole platform for e-learning. The exam system is ... usable. The fine arts, law, and social silences like it very much, because long form answers are readable. The natural sciences with the math bit have to work around it. We manage.
  • tchalla 5y ago
    It could also be a good argument to increase funding for professors and education.
  • notenoughhorses 5y ago
    I pay over $6,000 a semester to attend a reasonably-priced state university. While the professors may be overworked and underpaid, from a student perspective, for the money I give the institution, the institution can invest a little in systems that do all this automatically. International students pay significantly more, and there are often 100 students or more in a class. So it’s also not a great solution to put the burden of overworked professors onto the students by invading privacy and making them use poorly built suffrage to do so. The trouble is at the institution level.
    • undfg 5y ago
      I posted this during EU time; I understand they are ripping you off, but your comment does not apply to what I'm saying.
      • lol768 5y ago
        Expensive fees are a thing in countries that observe timezones aligned with "EU time" too.
• pfortuny 5y ago
  I (undegrad. prof. of mathematics, Spain) did "nothing" (see below) except prepare (not so) different exams. Same results as always. Exactly the same. Someone will have cheated. Well, as always: I am sure people cheat at my exams as they do at any other. I do not repent and I do not think I would do otherwise. *However*: I DID spend a lot of time preparing materials, attending tutorials, replying to emails, correcting my lecture notes, recording videos... I honestly think my students acted in accordance to my attitude: if you are honest, we are going to be as well.
  • Frost1x 5y ago
    I had an very relaxed Indian professor who served as as department chair when I went to university and he always had open book/note quizzes, tests/exams with no restrictions. These exams weren't designed to be more difficult, some answers you could very quickly reference from the associated text, handouts, or your notes. People asked if he was concerned that people cheated or wouldn't learn anything and he once gave an insightful comment m that stuck with me: if people cheat, and they will, they're only cheating themselves. He was right because while almost everyone passed his classes, not everyone ended up with successful careers. If they did, they probably had to pickup the sort of knowledge he crafted together like a masterful chef and hand fed us. The education is the product, not the degree. The degree is often a necessary rubber stamp to get past the first interview filters but it's not going to help you in most positions for the subsequent interview or actual job demands. You're really only cheating yourself of the education because the education is the real product here. Things have changed a bit and you can find pretty much anything online readily, but you have to chop up the information, prep it, and craft it into a meal. Over time these skills improve and you too can become a knowledge chef but your (good) university programs give you the tools to become a knowledge chef in your field. They start you out as a cook who knows how to do certain things but they also give techniques you need to make your own new dishes. That's what you're paying for.
    • nybble41 5y ago
      > He was right because while almost everyone passed his classes, not everyone ended up with successful careers. That can hurt the school's reputation if it becomes known for passing students who aren't actually prepared to do the work. Employers would prefer to recruit from schools where having a diploma actually means one is capable of doing what the job requires.
• captainmuon 5y ago
  Especially at universities I don't see the reason for invasive e-proctoring. When I was studying (physics, early 2000s in Germany), we didn't even have a honor system, we had the assumption that everybody is there to learn something. If you cheat, you harm yourself. Progress was assessed by weekly excercise sheets where you were encouraged to work together with others, and to learn how to use the library to find solutions. After each semester there would be a test for each course, and you would get a certificate if passed. Attendence to lectures was usually not checked. The tests were "closed" and watched, but if you were determined you could probably have easily cheated. Anyway regular cheaters would have failed miserably at the latest in the oral exams or the lab courses. I think a major function of universities is to teach people to be independent and responsible, and if we school-ize them we loose a lot.
  • jordanpg 5y ago
    The real story here is that cheating is rampant, everyone knows it, and that the universities (as opposed to individual professors) are not prepared to do what is necessary to stop it. I'm speaking, of course, of measures like expulsion. Too much of a hit to the bottom line, too much messy litigation, and too much bad PR. All of this is another way of making your point, which is that the core mission of universities has drifted away from idealized learning to big business and sports. I suspect the entire thing needs to be nuked from orbit before it can be rebuilt and I'm happy to see COVID accelerating the process.
    • gambiting 5y ago
      Again, I think the problem is elsewhere. Where I'm from(Poland) cheating is rampant and universities have absolutely no trouble kicking people out over it. Got caught cheating? Good bye, apply again next year. It doesn't lead to litigation or messy PR. Maybe it's because all universities are free to attend so no one can argue that they paid for something they aren't getting - all they are losing is their own time.
      • basisword 5y ago
        I went to university a bit later in life. When I was in high school smartphones weren’t a thing yet and cheating in exams was difficult and not common. At university cheating seemed rampant and easy. It was easy to spot the potential cheaters but not easy to prove they were cheating so they got away with it. You just go to the bathroom (in a long exam they can’t exactly stop you from this) and you have all your notes on your phone. There were people I’m surprised got into the university in the first place getting really good grades because of this. It was frustrating but I’m not sure what universities can do in this case. It seems to me that the “exam” process needs rethought entirely. I’m not sure how it could be changed but it is far too easy to cheat now. Like a lot of things in life too, the dishonest people tend to get away with it and manage to succeed while some portion of the honest people work very hard and struggle.
• notenoughhorses 5y ago
  This semester all my exams are open note, no proctoring. I think it is harder for professors to write a good exam this way (they need to make the questions things that test understanding instead of just recall.) I’m certainly doing way better with this method, but I think I am still learning the subject just as well as I would in the “old” method of stressful proctoring and memorization. It seems like with software, you could easily write math questions with different inputs, as you suggest (in fact, our homework software already did that for math last semester), but it seems that those tools are not built into the testing software so much. It definitely seems like a solvable issue though!
• maeln 5y ago
  I teached a C class during coronavirus lockdown in France and I also did something of the sort (having different question per student, mixing their order, etc). But I think, most importantly, I put a lot of emphasis on group work & home work. This has also its own issues. I like to do group homework because I believe that in the real world, you rarely work alone, and group work allow to have more fun project than what you can do in a 1-2h exam. On the other hand, I know some student hate it because there is always a slacker in every group. And home work is also an issue because not every student has time to work outside of school sadly. I try to give time during the classes for them to work on their homework but it is not all the time possible (limited number of hour for the whole course). Overall, I hate grading and exams, I consider that my job is teaching, not grading, but this doesn't really work in the real world sadly.
  • BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    > I know some student hate it because there is always a slacker in every group My experience is that there is sometimes somebody who is not a slacker, and it's usually the only one doing the work for the entire group.
    • bluGill 5y ago
      Everyone thinks they are that one person. It is hard to be objective when different people are doing different things.
      • BiteCode_dev 5y ago
        Nah, it's very easy to be objective when on a 5 pages homework, one write 5, and the others 0. Or if only one person has compiling code on their machine the day before the project. Of if only one person speak on the conf because the others don't have anything to say.
        • bluGill 5y ago
          I've never personally seen that. I've seen cases where one person writes four pages, and one writes one page claiming it was the hardest. I've seen cases where one person writes the code, and one writes the paper about the code. The only case I've seen where one person does all the work the person who does all the work refuses to allow the others to help.