4 ms·

This very much disagrees with you: https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/AAUP-2021-SurveyAppendices.pdf https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/AAUP-2021-Su

by rpearl 5y ago

This very much disagrees with you: https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/AAUP-2021-SurveyAppendices.pdf https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/AAUP-2021-SurveyApp... A sampling of average overall salaries for professors: - UC Berkeley (ie bay area): $214,300 - UCLA: $234,200 - UT San Antonio: $130,900 - UT Dallas: $169,500 So an average Berkeley professor makes more than half again as much as an average UT San Antonio professor. And 25% more than UT Dallas.

unishark 5y ago
I'd suspect CA pays somewhat better, though it'd be countered to a degree by the high number of academics preferring to live in CA. But either way, Berkeley and UCLA versus UTSA and UTD? Are the latter two even ranked in the top 100? Berkeley has the 2nd most nobel prize winners in the US behind Harvard. UCLA has a solid number too.
- malshe 5y ago
  I agree, it is a non starter. In any case I was not comparing average TX university salaries to just two universities in CA
vel0city 5y ago
You're forgetting income taxes and then add CoL on top of that. Sure you're making gross more but that $214k turns to ~$140k after taxes while that Texas $169k turns into ~$126k. So closer to a difference of about $14k. Then think that housing is way cheaper, gas is almost half the price, electricity can easily be had for 7c/kWh in DFW, etc. I just filled up this afternoon for $2.49/gal, what does gas cost out there these days, $4.60/gal? In the end I imagine the prof at UTD could easily have more cash at the end of the month than the prof at UC Berkeley. UTSA is such a small school it really shouldn't even be compared to UC Berkeley or UCLA.
- jjeaff 5y ago
  Many CA universities have housing programs for professors to offset the higher cost of living that i don't think show up in those salary averages.
  - vel0city 5y ago
    Interesting, I see that here: https://www.ucop.edu/loan-programs/loan-programs/frap/index.html https://www.ucop.edu/loan-programs/loan-programs/frap/index.... It doesn't really say what percentage of professors get this assistance or how much that assistance is typical in the end. Faculty housing rates at UCLA: https://portal.housing.ucla.edu/faculty-housing/faculty-housing-rates-information https://portal.housing.ucla.edu/faculty-housing/faculty-hous... So pretty much >$2k and up to $5,427/mo for housing costs. And that's supposed to be somehow more affordable than the surrounding area? For a 2bdr apartment its >$500/mo more than my mortgage + insurance on a four bedroom home with a pool purchased recently. For the condos, that's a few grand a month more. Compared to $1,400/mo average rent immediately surrounding UTD. Rent can be found for <$850/mo in Richardson, only 42-70% of the cost. And that's without having a small commute and living in a cheaper part of DFW, as Richardson's real estate isn't exactly a cheap part of town. That would have to be a pretty good-sized stipend to offset that cost. Also it speaks volumes that a professor making >$40k gross more needs to then also have a housing stipend to make the actual take home close to the person making >$40k less.
- malshe 5y ago
  Texas A&M professors might be keeping more than even a UCLA prof! College Station is a tiny town.
  - vel0city 5y ago
    Yeah, right? The Texas A&M prof can probably afford a good-sized house, own and operate multiple cars, and still save more cash at the end of the month than a prof at UCLA living in a studio and not owning a car despite making ~$100k less gross income. I remember taking a hard look at some job offers around SF, relocating from DFW. Crunching the numbers I would have needed well more than twice my current salary to have my savings rate be the same and I'd still be downsizing my housing a good bit.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
malshe 5y ago
Others have pointed out critical problems in your comparison. Clearly, you can't cherrypick the best universities in CA and compare them to second-best in TX. UTSA is not even an R1 university. Generally when people talk about top universities in TX, they refer to UT Austin and Texas A&M. In any case, neither UC Berkeley nor UCLA is a good representative of CA universities. A major issue in looking at the averages at the entire university level like this is that you might be comparing apples to oranges. There are typically three ranks among research professors: assistant, association, and full. These positions can additionally have chairs. The salaries differ considerably across these ranks. Then there are teaching positions which are usually non tenure track. They may also have the same assistant, associate, and full professor positions but their salaries are much lower than the research professors. AAUP appendix has combined all of them into one single category. Finally, this survey masks the salary differences among different disciplines. In American universities, B-school professors typically earn way more than other disciplines such as pure sciences, psychology, and engineering. When we do salary comparisons (we have to do it while negotiating a raise), we pick out colleges/schools that are similarly ranked as ours and then we take average salaries of professors at the same position. As I mentioned, the salaries are public so this is possible although quite tedious.

by rpearl 5y ago

unishark 5y ago

I'd suspect CA pays somewhat better, though it'd be countered to a degree by the high number of academics preferring to live in CA. But either way, Berkeley and UCLA versus UTSA and UTD? Are the latter two even ranked in the top 100? Berkeley has the 2nd most nobel prize winners in the US behind Harvard. UCLA has a solid number too.

malshe 5y ago
I agree, it is a non starter. In any case I was not comparing average TX university salaries to just two universities in CA

vel0city 5y ago

You're forgetting income taxes and then add CoL on top of that. Sure you're making gross more but that $214k turns to ~$140k after taxes while that Texas $169k turns into ~$126k. So closer to a difference of about $14k. Then think that housing is way cheaper, gas is almost half the price, electricity can easily be had for 7c/kWh in DFW, etc. I just filled up this afternoon for $2.49/gal, what does gas cost out there these days, $4.60/gal? In the end I imagine the prof at UTD could easily have more cash at the end of the month than the prof at UC Berkeley. UTSA is such a small school it really shouldn't even be compared to UC Berkeley or UCLA.

jjeaff 5y ago
Many CA universities have housing programs for professors to offset the higher cost of living that i don't think show up in those salary averages.
- vel0city 5y ago
  Interesting, I see that here: https://www.ucop.edu/loan-programs/loan-programs/frap/index.html https://www.ucop.edu/loan-programs/loan-programs/frap/index.... It doesn't really say what percentage of professors get this assistance or how much that assistance is typical in the end. Faculty housing rates at UCLA: https://portal.housing.ucla.edu/faculty-housing/faculty-housing-rates-information https://portal.housing.ucla.edu/faculty-housing/faculty-hous... So pretty much >$2k and up to $5,427/mo for housing costs. And that's supposed to be somehow more affordable than the surrounding area? For a 2bdr apartment its >$500/mo more than my mortgage + insurance on a four bedroom home with a pool purchased recently. For the condos, that's a few grand a month more. Compared to $1,400/mo average rent immediately surrounding UTD. Rent can be found for <$850/mo in Richardson, only 42-70% of the cost. And that's without having a small commute and living in a cheaper part of DFW, as Richardson's real estate isn't exactly a cheap part of town. That would have to be a pretty good-sized stipend to offset that cost. Also it speaks volumes that a professor making >$40k gross more needs to then also have a housing stipend to make the actual take home close to the person making >$40k less.
malshe 5y ago
Texas A&M professors might be keeping more than even a UCLA prof! College Station is a tiny town.
- vel0city 5y ago
  Yeah, right? The Texas A&M prof can probably afford a good-sized house, own and operate multiple cars, and still save more cash at the end of the month than a prof at UCLA living in a studio and not owning a car despite making ~$100k less gross income. I remember taking a hard look at some job offers around SF, relocating from DFW. Crunching the numbers I would have needed well more than twice my current salary to have my savings rate be the same and I'd still be downsizing my housing a good bit.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

malshe 5y ago

Others have pointed out critical problems in your comparison. Clearly, you can't cherrypick the best universities in CA and compare them to second-best in TX. UTSA is not even an R1 university. Generally when people talk about top universities in TX, they refer to UT Austin and Texas A&M. In any case, neither UC Berkeley nor UCLA is a good representative of CA universities. A major issue in looking at the averages at the entire university level like this is that you might be comparing apples to oranges. There are typically three ranks among research professors: assistant, association, and full. These positions can additionally have chairs. The salaries differ considerably across these ranks. Then there are teaching positions which are usually non tenure track. They may also have the same assistant, associate, and full professor positions but their salaries are much lower than the research professors. AAUP appendix has combined all of them into one single category. Finally, this survey masks the salary differences among different disciplines. In American universities, B-school professors typically earn way more than other disciplines such as pure sciences, psychology, and engineering. When we do salary comparisons (we have to do it while negotiating a raise), we pick out colleges/schools that are similarly ranked as ours and then we take average salaries of professors at the same position. As I mentioned, the salaries are public so this is possible although quite tedious.